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Negative narrative about Penn State starting to change, Franco Harris says
The Morning Call ^ | 1-26-13 | Mark Wogenrich

Posted on 01/26/2013 9:52:14 PM PST by FlJoePa

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Franco doesn't seem to be giving up. This event was yesterday in King of Prussia in a snow storm. Every seat was still filled.

"The Joe We Know" film was presented in Baltimore tonight to 500 invitees along with 70 Letterman - including Franco, Lydell Mitchell and Lenny Moore. Tomorrow there is another 3 hour Franco/John Ziegler/Ray Blehar event in D.C.

The narrative actually is shifting. Go to John Ziegler's site - framingpaterno.com if you want the truth. Just like with our Sarah, John cuts through the media bias, lies, and incompetence and serves up the truth.

I don't trust the PSU b.o.t., I don't trust the PA AG's office, I don't trust the sitting Governor, I don't trust louis freeh, I don't trust the ncaa, I certainly don't trust the media (espn especially). If Joe were alive I would trust him though. You stand w/ louis freeh, I'll stand w/ Joe. I know who's honorable.

1 posted on 01/26/2013 9:52:21 PM PST by FlJoePa
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To: FlJoePa

And yet Sandusky was given unrestricted access to young flesh.


2 posted on 01/26/2013 10:00:25 PM PST by Old Sarge (We are officially over the precipice, we just havent struck the ground yet...)
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To: Old Sarge

Yup - by the second mile and all the state and local agencies that allowed this to take place. Not Penn State and Not Joe Paterno. Go to Ziegler’s site and learn the truth.


3 posted on 01/26/2013 10:07:12 PM PST by FlJoePa ("Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good")
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To: FlJoePa

Pedophilia State U. is trying to change its image? Why? Senior PSU officials (including Paterno) were happy enough to know what Sandusky was doing and not report him to the police. They knew and they let it go on for many years to avoid a scandal and protect the prgram. The thing that really bothers me about this affair is that the SMU football program got the death penalty because boosters got caught paying players but the PSU football program did not get the death penalty for this. Apparently the NCAA feels that having boosters pay players is worse than having senior university officials complicit in molesting little boys. Talk about skewed priorities.


4 posted on 01/26/2013 10:29:32 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: FlJoePa

Any school on probation should not have televised games or participate in BCS bowls.


5 posted on 01/26/2013 10:29:50 PM PST by Tai_Chung
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To: jospehm20

Image? What are you talking about? What is your attention span? Read the links or don’t comment on them. You obviously know very little, yet your mouth runs so large.


6 posted on 01/26/2013 10:44:02 PM PST by FlJoePa ("Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good")
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To: FlJoePa

I do know that Mike McQueary testified to a Grand Jury that he told Paterno in 2002 that he personally witnessed Sandusky having anal sex with a young boy in the shower at the Lasch Football Building at Penn State. I know Paterno did not immediately report it to police as any normal person would and he was aware that Sandusky was never arrested for it. I assume he acted the way he did to avoid a scandal. I also know that making a film called “The Framing of Joe Paterno” after knowing what McQueary testified to is laughable. You can believe what you want but I believe that Paterno was a pervert enabler. So were the PSU AD, the head of campus police and the University President. As for the link, I did read it. It is a bunch of PSU alumni and supporters saying PSU officials were framed. I don’t buy that, in fact I think PSU got off too easy considering what happened.


7 posted on 01/26/2013 11:38:29 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: jospehm20; FlJoePa; WPaCon
jospehm20:

Joe Paterno as a pervert enabler???? I seriously doubt it. He is the now dead scapegoat used by the pervert American community and the perverts running Penn State to trash him (as the only nationally known celebrity at Penn State) and take the focus off the despicable Penn State president Graham Spanier whose doctoral thesis was on wife swapping and who arrived at Penn State vowing to make it the most "gay friendly" campus in the US. He certainly saw to it that it had the most "gay friendly" president and likely the most "gay friendly" board of trustees as well.

Let's look at the man you claim as a source---the aptly named Michael McQueary. If McQueary "personally witnessed Sandusky having anal sex with a young boy in the shower," etc., and McQueary was a "normal person" what did McQueary do? Did he walk into the shower and separate Sandusky from the young boy? No. Did he shout out to Sandusky to leave the kid alone or to the kid to flee the shower room? No. Did McQueary then and there cold cock Sandusky who was about old enough to be his grandfather? No. Did McQueary even call the cops on Sandusky promptly so that Sandusky could be arrested that night? No. McQueary told his own father a couple of days later and then went to Joe Paterno (not the state police, not the Bellefont police, not the Center County Sheriff, not the Center County prosecutor, with his story or so he says. Assuming that he did, he lacked the stature to be automatically believed.

Joe Paterno followed the campus rules and reported to HIS superiors who then killed the investigation (to protect the guilty??? and not just Sandusky). Several of the higher ups have been indicted now belatedly and are facing trials. If found guilty, may they rot in prison as long as pervert Sandusky. Next, investigate Second Mile Foundation and its apparent role in pimping fatherless prepubescent boys to Sandusky (and to anyone else??? America wants to know).

Were boys provided to politicians? See a very interesting book called the Franklin County Coverup written by a former Nebraska State Senator who investigated even worse behavior in Omaha, involving judges, FBI agents, bankers, local police, and political figures using boys from a juvenile detention center and making them murder one another when the molesters were done with them.

About ten years ago, the elected Centre County prosecutor was investigating Sandusky. He stayed late in his office on a Friday night, was observed leaving his office with his laptop and getting in his own car. He was never seen again. The laptop, its hard drive utterly destroyed was found in a river bed not to far from Bellefont. No one seems overly interested in that cold case. Why not? When I practiced criminal defense law in Connecticut, if a prosecutor disappeared under such circumstances, the state and local police would not have rested from the moment of disappearance, the body would have been recovered and the perps brought to justice. That would be the same in almost any jurisdiction in the country.

The fact is that this entire case stinks to high heaven and the stink does not arise from Joe Paterno or from his grave. The current governor used to be state attorney general and this stuff occurred on his watch. Spanier makes the late Tiny Tim look like He-Man or GI Joe. He is still apparently a tenured sociology professor at PSU although he has also been hired by Obozo for some God-forsaken (as usual) reason. Spanier, before arriving at PSU disciplined University of Nebraska football players for the incredible crime of actually praying in a group before a football game. OTOH, Spanier apparently fully participated in telling his subordinates to cover up for Sandusky.

BTW, I am not more than an occasional fan of college football although I rooted for University of Alabama to administer punishment to the heathen Obozo worshiping University of Notre Shame. I do respect Joe Paterno's legacy of excellence in amateur sport and I resent that he is being used after his death by the perps of this disgrace to deflect attention from their misdeeds especially when he is not available to defend himself.

Like most civilized folks, I have absolutely no use for Sandusky or anyone like him. Put him in a maximum security prison and keep him in the general population and the inmates will relieve the taxpayers of the burden of Sandusky's room and board as Wisconsin prisoners did with the late Jeffrey Dahlmer. Did I mention that McQueary is some sort of subordinate football coach at PSU???

8 posted on 01/27/2013 12:47:14 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: BlackElk

the case of Ray Gricar (sp?) is certainly a strange one....


9 posted on 01/27/2013 12:53:09 AM PST by cherry
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To: jospehm20

Oh, and lest I forget: PSU has its own sworn police department. State Police, County Sheriffs, local police, all defer to the campus cops on matters occurring on campus. This is “professional courtesy” and not a legal requirement. It helps such campuses to cover up crimes on campus lest the school be embarrassed. Civilian university authorities have authority to interfere with the campus police. The campus authorities are NOT sworn officers. This business of campus police forces is necessarily a corrupt and very bad idea because of the fact that campus cops are not truly independent of CYA oriented campus authorities who often care less about law enforcement but very much about their own jobs.


10 posted on 01/27/2013 12:54:15 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: cherry

Correct spelling of the missing prosecutor’s name. It certainly is strange, as you say.


11 posted on 01/27/2013 1:28:42 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: BlackElk

McQueary testified to what he saw in 2010, while Paterno was still alive. I agree with you that McQueary acted reprehensibly. He should have stopped the act and notified police immediately but once he told Paterno what happened, I think Paterno should have notified police. If Paterno did not notify law enforcement than he was enabling Sandusky unless one believes that McQueary lied under oath about notifying Paterno.


12 posted on 01/27/2013 1:48:20 AM PST by jospehm20
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To: FlJoePa

It’s Ped State. It’ll always be Pes State, the stain will not go away. Little boys were sacrificed to the god of football, Paterno knew and it still went on.


13 posted on 01/27/2013 2:34:03 AM PST by muir_redwoods (Don't fire until you see the blue of their helmets)
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To: BlackElk
Joe Paterno followed the campus rules and reported to HIS superiors who then killed the investigation (to protect the guilty??? and not just Sandusky). Several of the higher ups have been indicted now belatedly and are facing trials. If found guilty, may they rot in prison as long as pervert Sandusky. Next, investigate Second Mile Foundation and its apparent role in pimping fatherless prepubescent boys to Sandusky (and to anyone else??? America wants to know

Are you crazy....if you believe this is what happened and Jopa was so great why didn't he go public right then, threaten to resign if some thing wasn't done and end the abuse of those kids. JOPA was more interested in his legacy than anything else.

14 posted on 01/27/2013 3:10:17 AM PST by ontap
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To: BlackElk

Michael McQueary was a product of the Paterno Way.


15 posted on 01/27/2013 5:10:33 AM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
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To: FlJoePa
Glory be to God that people are starting to see what a sham this whole event was. God Bless Joe Pa, Penn State and all Pennsylvanians! God is Good!!!!!
16 posted on 01/27/2013 5:22:25 AM PST by napscoordinator (GOP Candidate 2020 - "Bloomberg 2020 - We vote for whatever crap the GOP puts in front of us.")
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To: jospehm20

“If Paterno did not notify law enforcement than he was enabling Sandusky unless one believes that McQueary lied under oath about notifying Paterno.”

Not only did Joe Paterno not notify law enforcement...he squashed the Action Plan that Curley/Spanier came up with, after the 2nd known incident (McCleary reporting).

Paterno used his influence to squash the Action Plan, which was the first attempt to notify local authority.


17 posted on 01/27/2013 5:28:49 AM PST by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obama's Socialist Agenda)
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To: FlJoePa

I admire Franco Harris for his continued support of Joe Paterno and Penn State.

And, he is correct....the media-spun narrative is falling apart. Note that the media has really backed off the PSU story.

With the latest on the NCAA breaking its own rules and by-laws in their investigation of Miami, the whole view of their doings against Penn State are coming to a new light. Probably what Franco was alluding to....I am sure he is familiar with the Miami case

And, ESPN sat on the Bernie Fine Pedophilia case at Syracuse for nearly a decade....because many working at ESPN are Syracuse grads (many in the media are Syracuse grads). Their PSU reports are slanted....heck Penn St and Paterno owned them in football for years...


18 posted on 01/27/2013 6:03:15 AM PST by SeminoleCounty (GOP = Greenlighting Obama's Programs)
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To: Old Sarge

That was provided through his own charity wasn’t it?


19 posted on 01/27/2013 6:08:47 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

....much of it on the Penn St campus and with knowledge by Paterno, Curley, Spanier.

That mini “video” is a pathetic display of former PSU sycophants of Paterno, unable to come to terms with what he did.

There is no evidence on it and they even use the Sandusky defense attorney as a major contributor.


20 posted on 01/27/2013 6:34:35 AM PST by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obama's Socialist Agenda)
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To: FlJoePa

Joe should have run a clean program and not allowed perverts in the locker room


21 posted on 01/27/2013 6:45:01 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: FlJoePa
The narrative actually is shifting.

Riiiight ...... because, as we all know, Grand Juries lie all the time, right?

Uh, no. The narrative is not shifting .... Penn State, including Paterno, WAS an enabler of Sandusky's abuse and thus they DO deserve to be punished.

Time for you, and Franco Harris, to get your heads out of the sand and face reality.


22 posted on 01/27/2013 6:47:11 AM PST by canuck_conservative
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To: BlackElk

“About ten years ago, the elected Centre County prosecutor was investigating Sandusky. He stayed late in his office on a Friday night, was observed leaving his office with his laptop and getting in his own car. He was never seen again. The laptop, its hard drive utterly destroyed was found in a river bed not to far from Bellefont. No one seems overly interested in that cold case. Why not? When I practiced criminal defense law in Connecticut, if a prosecutor disappeared under such circumstances, the state and local police would not have rested from the moment of disappearance, the body would have been recovered and the perps brought to justice. That would be the same in almost any jurisdiction in the country. “

You are 200% percent correct that in any normal jurisdiction this “mystery” would be solved and no stone left unturned. This stinks to high heaven.


23 posted on 01/27/2013 6:49:57 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: jospehm20
"I do know that Mike McQueary testified to a Grand Jury that he told Paterno in 2002 that he personally witnessed Sandusky having anal sex with a young boy in the shower at the Lasch Football Building at Penn State."

That's according to the exaggerated GJ presentment, not the actual testimony. It just isn't true. Dr. Dranov (a mandatory reporter) asked mm 3 times that night "was there anything sexual?" and got 3 no's back from mm. MM's testimony is still sealed, but Franco asked him point blank what he told Joe and mm told him he told Joe basically nothing. I guess Franco's a liar now too?

24 posted on 01/27/2013 6:57:41 AM PST by FlJoePa ("Success without honor is an unseasoned dish; it will satisfy your hunger, but it won't taste good")
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To: FlJoePa

It’s a nice attempt at a deflection, but Paterno stated, as shown in the investigation that he knew the nature of the incident “...WAS SEXUAL IN NATURE...”

The screen shot is even shown in this propaganda video, lol.


25 posted on 01/27/2013 7:46:36 AM PST by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obama's Socialist Agenda)
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To: FlJoePa

That is not what he testified at the trial.
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/22/nation/la-na-nn-sandusky-jury-20120622
Maybe you believe what Franco claims he was told by McQueary holds more weight than his testimony under oath in court. I do not. Of course Franco could not lie, former pro football players are all awesome and upstanding folks. Everybody knows that.


26 posted on 01/27/2013 9:58:42 AM PST by jospehm20
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To: Old Sarge

Pedo State should be bulldozed to the ground and then nuked from orbit, just to be sure. Paterno’s statue should be shipped to the Ft. Sill Artillery Range and used for target practice.


27 posted on 01/27/2013 12:48:01 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: SVTCobra03

Better idea: melt the Paterno statue down and use the metal for musket balls.

We’re gonna need ‘em...


28 posted on 01/27/2013 8:33:09 PM PST by Old Sarge (We are officially over the precipice, we just havent struck the ground yet...)
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To: jospehm20; ontap
In 2010, many years after the incident that McQueary sort of "witnessed," not actually seeing the sexual abuse of the child but merely hearing slapping sounds coming from the shower room which we may, arguendo, assume here to be the sounds of sexual abuse of a minor prepubescent boy, McQueary testified. By that time Paterno had the lung cancer that killed him and was 86 years old or thereabouts.

I think Paterno should have notified the police as well. But which police??? Certainly not the campus police. Penn State's CYA (for Penn State) rules required that he report only to designated superiors in the university who were NOT sworn officers. Then the university rules provided that it was his superiors who would make the decisions as to whether to notify the campus cops and that no other law enforcement personnel be notified. Can you spell institutionalized coverup????

Given the obvious passion of PSU president Graham Spanier to make PSU a haven for gay everything (draw your own conclusions as to that!) which he announced upon his appointment as PSU president in about 1995, he was obviously reluctant to blow the whistle on Sandusky for behavior that Spanier probably viewed as an understandable "alternative sexual preference" for pre-pubescent boys on the part of the long in the tooth pervert monster Sandusky. It is only the "bitter clingers," the Bible beaters and the gun nuts and those pro-lifers who would object to Sandusky's cutting edge advancements in human "sexuality." Unfortunately for that "gay" blade Sandusky, his jury apparently shared the objections of the bitter clingers, etc. Hopefully Spanier's jury will be relentless in following in their footsteps. Likewise the juries that will judge the two university bureaucrats to whom Paterno DID report. There is not a jury in Pennsylvania's Bellefont and Centre County that would convict Joe Paterno for the very good reason that HE VIOLATED NO LAW. He was not a mandatory reporter. He also witnessed absolutely NOTHING personally.

McQueary is STILL on the football program payroll. Outside of PSU, no one knows McQueary and no one cares what happens to him. He cares about that paycheck. IF he witnessed the sexual assault even by hearing it, it was his job to put a stop to it then and there, report it to law enforcement authorities (again a violation of university rules but never mind) and take responsibility for his own accusations. Joe Paterno was not his lawyer, not his daddy, not his servant, not required in any way to become an advocate for McQueary and his theory. He also was not a mandatory reporter as to child abuse and particularly not mandated to report that MacQueary thinks he heard a sexual assault in the shower room.

However, since Joe Paterno is dead and is nationally known, he is a convenient scapegoat and dead horse to beat to take attention away from the living perps. Left wing sportswriters who imagine their job to be sitting in "moral judgment" according to the prejudices of the left are not very fond of Joe Paterno's life and legacy. He was a conservative ethnic man who took real responsibility for his players, was never politically trendy, and whose devotion to on the field excellence showed in his results on the field. All in all, Joe Paterno was a perfect target for the Keith Olbermans not because he was guilty of anything but because he was one of the very best coaches in the business. He is being hanged for his virtues and not for any sins.

The local elected prosecutor Ray Gricar disappeared in 2005 with his laptop and in his car while apparently investigating Sandusky under circumstances that suggest the prosecutor was murdered but the case goes cold and neither the politicians nor the university officials nor even the subsequent prosecutors nor many relevant law enforcement operations seem to give a sh*t. I am going to go out on a limb here and speculate that Ray Gricar was not murdered by Sandusky who was probably too busy raping little boys. The circumstances suggest rather that more important folks have seen to it that no one cares to find Gricar and find out who killed him. Nationally Gricar was a nobody. Locally, he was an important somebody. Something is verrrry wrong in Happy Valley and ought not to be ignored.

29 posted on 01/28/2013 12:43:01 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: BlackElk

Paterno was aware of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky for molesting boys. When McQueary told him of the new incident in 2002 it s not like there was a blank slate. McQueary may not have known about the previous incident but Paterno knew. I really have a problem with that because Paterno seemed like a real good guy in everything else but his behavior in this matter was, to me, simply abhorrent. I have read a little about Gricar. It is pretty suspicious what happened to him.


30 posted on 01/28/2013 3:24:02 AM PST by jospehm20
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To: BlackElk

“If only Uncle Joe knew this was going on”


31 posted on 01/28/2013 7:19:39 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (I think, therefore I am what I yam, and that's all I yam - "Popeye" Descartes)
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To: BlackElk
It's a shame you're drinking this kool aid that Paterno was fully innocent and didn't know anything.

The truth is, he had to have known to some degree, he likely knew to a great degree, the evidence is there for anyone to find, but you seem incapable of looking.

He was a great coach, spectacular on the field and with his players; we will never know to what degree he failed as a man, but unfortunately the best you can say about him in this matter is he was too busy to deal with the plight of a bunch of young boys being exploited by a pedophile who was his former very famous assistant, the former face of Penn State defense, the coach who made them linebackerU.

That's not a good thing to remember is your best as a man......

32 posted on 01/28/2013 7:35:41 PM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: Lakeshark
I read the grand jury report which was published in full by the New York Times. I read the report of a retired PSU trustee who was coming out of retirement seeking to return specifically over this disgraceful episode. Did you read either in full? I suspect not or you would not post as you have. What you have is speculation and, based upon that speculation, you are laying major blame on Joe Paterno. According to the rules of the university which bound him by contract, Paterno did exactly what he was supposed to do.

You can argue that he should have violated the university rules and personally brought the matter to the attention of some law enforcement authority and certainly that is an emotionally satisfying position. It does not get the job done.

First, the only law enforcement that MIGHT have taken a report was the Pennsylvania State University Police Department. They are sworn officers who are under the jurisdiction of the two CIVILIAN university authorities to whom he reported: Curley and Schultz (???)(in any event the two who are indicted and pending trial for covering up the matter. They in turn were subordinates of lavender queen enabling Graham Spanier who was everybody's boss at Penn State. He needs to be indicted, convicted and sent into general population at a maximum security facility in Pennsylvania and NOT retain his tenure as a sociology professor, not be working for Obozo in DC, and not allowed on campus or in any proximity to the young of any age, etc.

Next, I am drinking no kool aid. Are you drinking the CYA kool aid of Graham Spanier and the PSU fairies??? NO ONE claims that Paterno witnessed anything personally. He did report to Curley and Schultz(?) even though he had no direct evidence whatsoever of child rape by Sandusky. All he had was the report of the quite noncredible McQueary that McQueary HEARD noises from the shower room (slapping noises???) that he thought indicated the rape of a young boy by pervert Sandusky. McQueary did not even look into the shower room to confirm his suspicions nor did he interfere to stop the rape if that is what occurred on that occasion nor did McQUEARY (the only adult witness if that is what he was) report this to law enforcement. So you would hang Paterno for not running to the Bellefont Police, the Centre County Sheriff, the Pennsylvania State Police (all of whom would have referred him back to the Penn State Police out of rigid professional courtesy and turf considerations). The Penn State Police exist to do precisely what they are told by university higher ups. When supervised by civilian school administration hacks, they will be part of the problem and not the solution since they exist to keep other cops away and to cover university authorities. That is how it works at Yale and UConn and, no doubt, at Penn State.

You want to hold Paterno to account for not reporting McQueary's half vast suspicions and surmises and guesses to law enforcement just in case on a matter that seemed unlikely to be successfully investigated because McQueary could not muster the manhood to interfere with pervert Sandusky who was old enough to be McQueary's grandfather and put a stop to the rape of the child (IF that was what had occurred on that occasion).

I did not say anything that you claim I said. More sloppy speculation or sloppy accusation.

All you or anyone else has on Paterno is that maybe McQueary was a witness, that McQueary did NOTHING to stop the incident if there was one, did not interfere in any way, did not eyeball the victim, did not so much as say: Gerry you are a dirty old man or child rapist, did not report to ANYONE for days, and that his speculations under such circumstances, filleed with giant holes, were to be regarded by Paterno and by university officials and by potential law enforcement responders as though they were revelations of the Oracle at Delphi. And you accuse ME of drinking kool aid????

Read your last sentence of your post aloud three or more times while watching yourself in the mirror.

33 posted on 01/28/2013 10:09:49 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: jospehm20
Do I remember correctly that Paterno secured Sandusky's resignation in 1998 (for whatever reason and possibly for child molesting?) but lavender coddling Spanier's university administration decided to give Sandusky permanent access to the football facilities and showers and locker room, and that Paterno had no say in that decision?

Paterno is being targeted by the usual toxic gang of media leftists because it is unthinkable to them that such an enlightened leftist and social revolutionary as Spanier could be guilty of anything any more than Obozo or Hillary ever are. Furthermore, Paterno is conveniently dead and cannot litigate them within an inch of their lives for defamation.

Finally, anyone with a strong stomach who is interested in the M.O. of the sort of despicable creatures who conspire to get their jollies over the rape of children should read "The Franklin County Coverup" a book by a former Nebraska state senator (John de Camp) who had investigated similar and even worse behavior leading to the murder of the victim children in Omaha and involving a coven of public officials and prominentoes of BOTH parties and none including judges, police officials, a banker who seconded Reagan's nomination in 1984 and many more. No one has a roster of the Omaha perps but, before going to Penn State, Spanier was an official at University of Nebraska. I suspect he was NOT involved in the Franklin County coverup but I don't have any knowledge much less evidence of that..

As to dead prosecutor Ray Gricar, he is in Wikipedia and there are references to numerous local newspaper stories on Google.

34 posted on 01/28/2013 10:49:45 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: BlackElk

I don’t believe that anything major went on that concerned the PSU football program in 1999 without Paterno’s consent. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that he was the dominant figure in that program.


35 posted on 01/28/2013 11:16:58 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: BlackElk
So, you're suggesting the average person wouldn't, you know, have followed up on a report of raping a boy in a shower to find out what happened? I know, a yawner, a trifle, a man of his stature and importance shouldn't be interested in following up on the safety of minors from a man in a position to exploit them......

Good grief man, get a grip.

Are you also suggesting he knew nothing of earlier reports, when it is probable he did?

Are you also suggesting that the obvious explanation, that he might want to cover up these incidents because of his trajectory to be the winningest coach of all time, with one of the best football programs of all time as a legacy isn't the likely truth?

It's a far more likely explanation than what you've given, and in spite of protestations it's clear you HAVE drunk the kool aid.

36 posted on 01/29/2013 7:23:55 AM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: Lakeshark
Here's the probable result of Joe Paterno trying to double as Dick Tracy:

Joe Paterno to Gerry Sandusky: Were you anally raping a ten-year old boy in the shower room at the foptball complex on Friday noght, March __, 20__?

Sandusky: No, of course not! Why do you ask?

Joe Paterno: Because Michael "Nobody" McQueary claimed he was in the building when you did.

Sandusky: Claimed??? What were the specifics?

Joe Paterno: Umm, days after the fact, he came around claiming that he was somewhere in the vicinity of the shower room when he "thinks" this happened because he heard "slapping sounds" but he did not actually see anything and apparently had no interest in DOING anything at the time, or identifying the victim who he never saw, or interfering with what he believes was an anal rape of the child.

Sandusky: Well, what is his claim? Without actually SEEING anything (the shower room has no locking doors), or interfering, what is this business about "slapping sounds?" Is he imagining sexual assault or slapping a kid around? Joe, when you and your wife have done what married folks do, did anything about sex between you two produce "slapping sounds?" McQueary must be nuts. Get him out of here!

Later: Joe Paterno to Michael McQueary: So tell me what happened that night.

McQueary: Sandusky was raping a kid in the shower room.

Joe Paterno: How awful! What did you see?

McQueary: Nothing. It was the sounds of slapping coming from the shower room that tipped me off.

Paterno: But....you SAW nothing???? Why not?

McQueary: Well, I didn't want to just barge in on them. That would be like rude to the max.

Joe Paterno: So what did you say to Sandusky when you saw him after he was finished raping the kid?

McQueary: Well, I never actually saw him at all.

Joe Paterno: Well who was the kid?

McQueary: How would I know?

Joe Paterno: How old was he? What did he look like?

McQueary: How would I know?

Joe Paterno: Didn't you see the kid?

McQueary: Gosh no! That would have been just rude!

Joe Paterno: How do you KNOW that there was a kid? That the kid was even in the shower room? That Gerry Sandusky was in the shower room? That Sandusky was anally raping the kid in the shower room?

McQueary: I just know. That's all!

The story ends with two possibilities as to Paterno's response to McQueary's claims.

First: Paterno inspired by the credibility and thorough investigation by McQueary and impressed by his manly response to his own suspicion (without evidence) that there was a child rape going on in that there shower room, calls the FBI, the Pennsylvania State Police, the Center County Sheriff, the Bellfonte Police Department and the PSU campus cops and is ignored (ain't our jurisdiction, man, call the compromised campus cop Barney Fifes) by all but the campus cops whose response is: Coach, you know that this story, by university rules, must be reported NOT to us but to our morally flexible and utterly civilian overlords Curley and Schultz who are footstools of Spanier who does not want anyone talking negatively about homosexual kiddie rape. C'mon, man, this is the 21st century! We could be in trouble for taking your call. We aren't making a record of this complaint to protect you and us! Take it to Curley and Schultz to disappear. We have important parking tickets to write for parking violations in the student parking lots. Priorities ARE priorities. First things first!

Second: Joe Paterno calls Curley and/or Schultz and hesitantly makes a report: This is certainly going to sound crazy but one of my nobody assistant coaches, Michael McQueary, just came in here with a dizzy fantasy (as detailed above) claiming that Sandusky had been anally raping a ten-year-old boy in the shower room at the football complex on a Friday night during Spring Break. McQueary saw nothing, did not see Sandusky or the alleged kid, claims that "slapping sounds" meant that such a kid was being raped, did not enter the shower room to interrupt the alleged rape or to cold cock Sandusky (assuming Sandusky was in the shower room at all). Guys, I am ashamed to say that McQueary had been an undertalented quarterback here before graduating to being an undertalented and, I guess, hallucinogenic assistant to the assistant to the assistant coaching job. Can we get some psychiatric help for McQueary and get him out of here before he decides that either of you or I may have been raping some kid in the shower room, or had been the real kidnapper of Judge Crater or have Amelia Earhart hidden in a secret laboratory on campus or, in my case due to age, that I may be the actual Jack the Ripper hiding out in Happy Valley waiting to go back to Jack's old habits? Who knows? In the absence of any actual evidence, McQueary just knows!!!

If Joe Paterno immediately responded by holding a public press conference detailing McQueary's unsupported claims, those who believed McQueary's claims would be likely to burn McQuaery at the stake for being a self-confessed coward who stood idly by while he THOUGHT a kid was being raped. Those who did not believe McQueary's claims would have treated McQueary (and maybe Paterno for taking him seriously) as space aliens who must have come from outer space or Paterno would have been presumed senile for taking McQueary's crazy story seriously.

REMEMBER: I personally don't give a sh*t about college football or college any other sport. I sometimes pay mild attention to professional football (a game or two every four years or so). My only serious sports interest is in the New York Yankees since the year that Mickey Mantle was a rookie. Nowadays, if a team does not feature Derek Jeter, I am not interested. When Jeter retires, I will find other Yankees to keep my rooting for the pinstripe laundry of New York. Without wasting time watching college football, I can admire excellence as a casual observer. As a coach, Paterno was a standard by which excellence is judged. One exception: As a Catholic, I despise Notre Shame University (for the Obozo incident at graduation and MANY other religious reasons) and tuned them in on the radio when they were smacked by Alabama as my wife and I screamed Roll, Tide, Roll! My only connection to Penn State football is that I once drove by their stadium in the offseason on my way to spending a week with Yale-connected friends in a nearby town. I don't believe that I have ever seen a single PSU football game even on television.

Joe Paterno had a magnificent career as PSU football coach. May some New York Yankees manager have that kind of track record in the time that remains to me in life. Paterno was the Babe Ruth of football coaches without Ruth's overly lively social life. My other sport is politics---the real blood sport of our times.

Your first paragraph: Such deviant misbehavior and crime is no yawner. If McQueary actually believed his own lies or unsupported truths if truths they were, why did he not walk right into the shower room, actually SEE the kid victim, see Sandusky's crime, haul off and belt Sandusky in the mouth, knock Sandusky to the floor of the shower room, and do the Bristol Stomp on his genitals until they were no longer useful for such purposes, i.e. the reaction of any normal male to such a crime against a child. Your first paragraph applies very much to McQueary and not at all to Paterno.

Get a grip yourself. And lay off Graham Spanier's kool aid while you are at it. Or as Gram Spanier might say paraphrasing the late Senator Russell Long: Don't blame you. Don't blame me! Blame the dead football coach under the tree! He is the only one at Penn State that anyone in the socially reactionary US has ever heard of. Let's keep it that way! JoePa had celebrity appeal and once the tabloid media and the low information gullibles have a chance to blame JoePa, they will ignore the real perps (other than Sandusky). Even on Free Republic, some people will believe our diversion!

Finally, Shoeless Joe Jackson had the second best lifetime batting average in the history, Pete Rose the most hits, Roger Clemens had the most Cy Young Awards, Barry Bonds the most home runs lifetime and the most MVP awards, Mark McGwire the most home runs in a single season. None are in the Baseball Hall of Fame. The politically correct baseball writers aren't fooling anyone by not electing them. Their records are what they are. Even if Rose bet on baseball games that he managed, even if the rest used performance enhancing drugs. That's the same Hall of Fame that had no problem including other baseball greats like Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and Tris Speaker, all of whom were active members of the Ku Klux Klan. Cobb also threw games for money (not comparable to Joe Jackson's performance for the Black Sox in the 1919 World Series) and was charged with attempted murder as a young man for stabbing a black restaurant waiter whom Cobb believed was being overly "uppity." Whatever Gerry Sandusky quite obviously did to many little boys (see jury verdict) would not change the excellence of Joe Paterno's coaching career.

Performance enhancing drugs affect the outcome of games and cumulative or even seasonal performance statistics which mean much to baseball fans. Gerry Sandusky's despicable perversions did not make Penn State a better winning football team or Joe Paterno a better coach.

Paterno was a football coach and not Inspector Closeau.

37 posted on 01/29/2013 2:51:34 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: SVTCobra03

Post of the day and I thank you for it.


38 posted on 01/29/2013 2:56:53 PM PST by MarMema
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To: BlackElk

I will try to find and read that book, if I can get through it.


39 posted on 01/29/2013 2:57:39 PM PST by MarMema
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To: jospehm20
So you imagine that if Gerry Sandusky was having a tough week ad the linebackers were underperforming, Joe Paterno's response was to say: Take some time off next week, pick out a few vulnerable kids and anally rape them but whatever you do get your head back into football! My reputation is at stake! [Or take two little boys and call me in the morning?]

Or was it that kiddie raping wasn't something major?

Does it occur to you that PSU's pervert friendly president Graham Spanier was the dominant figure at PSU even if you had never heard of him until this scandal??? That Spanier was even more powerful at Penn State generally than was Joe Paterno?

Again, read the Franklin County Coverup for the M. O. of those sexually exploiting lttle kids. Available at a reasonable price at Amazon.

40 posted on 01/29/2013 3:01:34 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: MarMema
It will take a strong stomach but it is well worth reading. The state senator who wrote the book left the state senate and politics and thought he might be murdered for revealing the details. Thankfully, he was not murdered and, today, in his mid-'70s, he is a major lawyer in Lincoln, Nebraska.

How are those goats?

The book can be obtained through Amazon for about $17.

May God continue to bless you and yours!

41 posted on 01/29/2013 3:08:40 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society. Broil 'em now!!!)
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To: BlackElk

I never wrote that Paterno approved of or encouraged Sandusky’s actions. I did write that I think it is obvious that Paterno knew about the 1998 allegations and investigation against Sandusky. He also knew nothing happened to Sandusky after the later 2002 incident. It does not really matter who was dominant in the decision to keep it quiet. If Paterno knew Sandusky was getting away with repeating behavior that he was already aware of and he did nothing about it, that is shameful. Are you saying that he should have deferred to whatever Spanier said even though he knew that Sandusky was probably getting away with molesting little boys? Are you saying Joe Paterno was rightly more worried about his job than he was about doing the right thing and stopping Sandusky? I do not believe Paterno had to be forced into anything. I think Paterno was agreeable to keeping the Sandusky thing quiet to protect the football program and it doesn’t matter much if he or Spanier was the one who suggested that course of action. The point is he knew about the allegations and lack of legal action against Sandusky and took no action. Silence is complicity in a case like this, in my view.

BTW, Wikipedia says the Franklin Child Prostitution Ring allegations were “a cleverly crafted hoax”. DeCamp is mentioned in their article on it. To quote the article, “After investigation, the Douglas County, Nebraska Grand Jury determined the abuse allegations were baseless”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_child_prostitution_ring_allegations


42 posted on 01/29/2013 11:50:58 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: jospehm20
We are going to agree to disagree on Joe Paterno. If I feel up to detailed response in the day time (it is now 2:22 AM) I may reply one more time. Basically, you have no actual evidence and just a bunch of unsubstantiated suspicions. You are not at all concerned about Michael McQueary or Curley or Schultz or the lavender-loving ringleader of the PSU pro-pervert circus. In fact, you say that "it does not really matter who was dominant in the decision to keep it quiet." Fee, Fie, Fo, Fum, I smell a planted axiom or twelve. You sound like Hillary on Benghazi except that she actually knows what she is talking about and lies as usual. You are playing Captain Ahab and imagine that the dead Joe Paterno is starring as Moby Dick. Careful! Moby Dick sank the Pequod and Captain Ahab with it and lived to frolic in the Atlantic Ocean thereafter.

A short list of things that seem not to concern you at all include: the role of perv coddler and PSU president Graham Spanier, the role of Curley, the role of Schultz, whether the disappearance and presumed murder of Ray Gricar had anything to do with the pervert rape culture of Gerry Sandusky, whether any university trustees or political big shots were involved and, if so, whom and how? I get that you are outraged at the kiddie rapes. I don't get why the late Joe Paterno is the single target of your undeviating wrath when it should seem that many others were more responsible (assuming that Paterno failed, in any way, in his ACTUAL responsibilities, which are not to substitute his guesswork as a football coach for actual law enforcement, and not to pass McQueary's non-credible gossip along as Gospel fact. Paterno witnessed absolutely NOTHING. But, hey, what does that matter? Some folks are out there with pitchforks and torches and a blood lust that just MUST be satisfied against the dead celebrity. If Paterno's now dead scalp can be taken, by GOD, those tabloid readers will join the mob. What good is it to fix blame on the likes of Spanier and Curley and Schultz and any other co-conspirators that NOBODY has ever herd of? The only justification to go after them is IF they wre guilty in any way leading to Sandusky's criminal perversions. That doesn't satisfy the Ooompah Band, though, does it?

Ever wonder how the Salem Witchcraft trials may have gotten hand? Oh, magistrate, Goody Bradford looked cross-eyed at me two weeks ago and three days later I became ill with the flu. She's a witch, I tell you! Burn her at the stake!!! No inquiry first! None of that irritating due process tripe that those lawyers hide behind! We weren't hindered by constitution or a bill of rights. We had our suspicions. Who needs evidence??? Right?

As to Senator De Camp's book, the Franklin County Coverup, I have not read it recently but I have a copy and my recollection is that "Child Prostitution Ring" does not begin to adequately describe the goings on in that scandal.

As to Grand Juries, state and federal, we who have practiced law are inclined to observe that a grand jury can be dominated by a prosecutor into "indicting a ham sandwich." If the Nebraska prosecutor is protecting the potential defendants, he can persuade the grand jury NOT to indict by act or omission of the prosecutor. The Jon Benet Ramsay case, anyone? I once served as the paid attorney for a grand jury in a domestic murder case. My fellow grand jurors included a nun who said she could not vote for an indictment because our state might impose a death penalty (2/3 was necessary to indict) and a bunch of other folks who wanted neither discussion nor deliberation because of parking rates in an adjacent lot and their desire to leave it behind because it was Friday afternoon. Contemplating that Obozo was re-elected, that long ago experience comes to mind to explain voter negligence or perfidy. Read De Camp's book and you are quite likely to have a different take on the case in Nebraska.

Or, perhaps you are a hopeless case. The clock neareth three. Good night!

43 posted on 01/30/2013 12:58:45 AM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society: Rack 'em, Danno)
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To: BlackElk

No, it is the same DeCamp and it is called the Franklin case. I don’t think there were multiple high profile child abuse ring cases named Franklin in Nebraska. I never wrote that I am not concerned about the other people, they will have their day in court. I think it is shocking that a group of men decided protecting a football program was more important than stopping what they knew was an active child molester. I also think things would have turned out much better for everybody had they done the right thing and pressed charges against Sandusky in 2002.


44 posted on 01/30/2013 2:21:01 AM PST by jospehm20
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To: BlackElk
I give up, you're right.

Paterno was a great man, with a great program, winningest coach ever.

Why bother him with some trifling story of young boys who were being savaged physically, psychologically and spirtually by his ex assistant coach? The program was what was important..........he saved it.........*phew*

45 posted on 01/30/2013 6:35:03 AM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: jospehm20; Lakeshark
Sandusky is where he belongs. Hopefully he will be joined by Spanier, Curley and Schultz and whoever killed that prosecutor. Spanier, Sandusky, Curley, Schultz and, maybe, the killer, should be in general population and be cellmates of Big Bubba to get a bit of their own medicine developing a "close, personal relationship" with Big Bubba until dead. If any politicians of either party were involved or university trustees, they can be next. Bubba will pitch.

BTW, Paterno WAS a great man. He ran a great football program and he was the winningest football coach of all time. He was not the campus police. He reported what he had HEARD from McQueary to the school authorities precisely as required by the rules of the university. THEY covered up not Paterno.

jospehm20:

Second hand criticisms of De Camp's book, legislative investigation and understanding of the rape and murder of juvenile boys in the Omaha area (no mere "prostitution ring") involving major law enforcement and governmental officials and civic leaders is no equivalent to the book, the investigation and that understanding of De Camp much less a trump card except for those who have read only the criticisms and not the work being criticized. If you ever get around to reading De Camp's book, you will be better able to see why its conclusions would meet with massive denial and resistance. BTW. it is not the "Franklin case" but the Franklin County Coverup. I refrain from describing the specifics to let De Camp speak for himself.

You "think it is shocking....etc." Again with the planted axioms. Spanier was protecting something a LOT closer to him than a football program. If you really are so SHOCKED!!! maybe you should consider being a sportswriter. They all confuse themselves by playing pop moral authority. See Cosell, Howard and Costas, Bob, among hundreds of others. Each and every one a self-appointed moral authority over all. When I need pontifications, I will get them from my Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI as of this time.

46 posted on 01/30/2013 7:12:19 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society: Rack 'em, Danno)
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To: jospehm20

At the time of the incident in 2002, Paterno followed state law in reporting the incicent to his superior.

If Paterno had gone out of the chain of command on his own, he could have been charged with a crime.


47 posted on 01/30/2013 7:25:58 PM PST by Delta Dawn (at)
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To: Delta Dawn

Then why did the Freeh report say that senior officials at Penn State University, including Paterno, failed for more than a decade to take any steps to protect the children victimized by Sandusky? Maybe Freeh, who used to be a federal judge and the head of the FBI just doesn’t know the law? The report did say that Paterno met his obligation under state law by informing his superior but he should have done more. To me, it looks like Paterno decided to keep quiet and hope the Sandusky thing went away to avoid embarrassing the football program. Other people may see it differently.


48 posted on 01/30/2013 8:38:22 PM PST by jospehm20
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To: jospehm20; Delta Dawn
jospehm20:

Maybe (in fact definitely) Louis Freeh who used to be a federal district court judge until he was appointed by Slick Willie to head the FBI and NEVER found anything wrong with Slick Willie or his remarkable administration (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil and dance with the girl what brung ya) retired to private legal practice with his spiffy new credentials as a former federal judge and former FBI Director and was hired by...... That's Right! Lavender promoting Graham Spanier and the Penn State marshmallow (if not worse) trustees needing a CYA report, paying well for one and getting one.

Of course, you just will not broaden the spectrum of your concerns to the actual Penn State culprits other than Sandusky because you just suspect that Paterno (the celebrity scalp) just has to be the scapegoat. And you are going with those suspicions come hell or high water.

Of course, since Paterno's death from lung cancer, it is God alone who is in charge of his punishment, if any punishment is deserved. Let's concentrate on the living perps.

49 posted on 01/30/2013 9:42:25 PM PST by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline, Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Society: Rack 'em, Danno)
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To: BlackElk
Good grief. You actually think that Paterno owed no one a second look or an inquiry, that he was entirely innocent because he made a single report one time, that he has no culpability in letting this go while a dozen young boys were savaged.......

This is not like overlooking some misdemeanor behavior on a player, or someone who is late to practice, or someone who didn't show up for a bed check. This is serious, life changing stuff that was going on, life changing stuff that was disgusting, and as vile as it gets. I really don't enjoy saying this, but anyone who looks at it that way, knowing that Paterno had the control he did, knowing that Paterno had information on his ex defensive coach that was damning, then hearing about the incident, then never following up, and you still think he was entirely innocent in this matter has drunk the kool aid big time. Really big time.....

I'm not defending Spanier or the rest, but give us a break, you sound like an old fool who has a crush on a Hollywood idol.

50 posted on 01/30/2013 9:48:53 PM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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