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Treating Depression: Is there a placebo effect? (PROZAC, OTHER SSRIs VIRTUALLY WORTHLESS)
CBS 60 Minutes ^ | Tonight | Lesley Stahl

Posted on 02/19/2012 6:07:06 PM PST by MindBender26

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Highlights: Prozac, Welbutrin, other SSRIs, virtually worthless.

Better than placebos in only 14% patients

No effect in the mildly or moderately depressed

Somewhat effective in small minority of the severely depressed

Company and FDA knew there are dozens of studies that show SSRIs have major negative side effects and little or no positive effects, but ignored those studies in approving drug. All they were two positive outcome studies, and they ignored the rest.

Billions being wasted on these drugs.

Now basically banned in UK

15 minute/day on treadmill much better.

It's all a placebo effect for vast majority of patients.... and huge $ for doctors and big pharma.

1 posted on 02/19/2012 6:07:11 PM PST by MindBender26
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To: MindBender26
Two fingers of this over ice and everything should start looking nice.....

2 posted on 02/19/2012 6:11:59 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: MindBender26
The purpose of medicine is no longer to heal.

The purpose of medicine is to give the government an excuse to steal from income-earners, and to generate cash flow to drug companies.

Period.

3 posted on 02/19/2012 6:12:03 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the fascists.)
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To: MindBender26

I wouldn’t dispute the value of exercise and other methods to treat depression. However, prozac is used to treat a spectrum of conditions, including anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder symptoms, and it seems to have helped folks I am familiar with. To a person who really is suffering from debilitating anxiety, etc., it seems to make quite a difference.

Also agree many medications are over prescribed, but that doesn’t mean these medicines are worthless. They seem to be talking about the average person who can benefit from a jog as much as medication. Not everyone falls in that category.


4 posted on 02/19/2012 6:12:33 PM PST by Williams (Honey Badger Don't Care)
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FR Needs New Servers
Please Donate Toward The Purchase And Keep FR Up And Running!


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5 posted on 02/19/2012 6:14:24 PM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

>> “The purpose of medicine is no longer to heal.
The purpose of medicine is to give the government an excuse to steal from income-earners, and to generate cash flow to drug companies.

Period.” <<

.
Zackly!
.


6 posted on 02/19/2012 6:14:41 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: MindBender26

They did not work for me; I felt worse because I am Bipolar and those of us who are need a mood-stabilizer as well. An anti-depressant alone can actually make it worse.

As far as others are concerned,it might make them feel better. I don’t know.


7 posted on 02/19/2012 6:14:45 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Future Meteorologist.)
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To: MindBender26

Sure sure, just walk off that BPD. It’s all placebo effect.

Thank you for that advice Doctor. I’ll throw away my pills and come over to your house so you can deal with me in one of my manic cycles.

One size does not fit all.


8 posted on 02/19/2012 6:15:37 PM PST by Mustang Driver
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To: MindBender26

Obamacare is not going to treat mild depression. That is all this report is about.

Those drugs are going no where. They are way too valuable in treating other disorders.


9 posted on 02/19/2012 6:15:43 PM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: MindBender26

Actually I think Welburtin is fairly effective for folks trying to quit smoking. Not sure how effective it is for depression.


10 posted on 02/19/2012 6:16:38 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

Agree on the Prozac. With BPD you are taking Pixie Sticks


11 posted on 02/19/2012 6:17:07 PM PST by Mustang Driver
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To: MindBender26

“Better than placebos in only 14% patients”

So, screw that 14%? How many will off themselves?
Can you say death panels?


12 posted on 02/19/2012 6:17:07 PM PST by jessduntno ("Newt Gingrich was part of the Reagan Revolution's Murderers' Row." - Jeffrey Lord, Reagan Admin.)
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To: Williams

But they work better than placebos in only 14% of cases. In other words, 86% got better because they thought pills were working!

86% percent got better on sugar pills!


13 posted on 02/19/2012 6:18:19 PM PST by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: jessduntno

Yup.

Maybe the 14% can go live with the death panelists who say it is all placebo


14 posted on 02/19/2012 6:18:32 PM PST by Mustang Driver
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To: BenLurkin

It’s all in your head!! LOL!!


15 posted on 02/19/2012 6:19:33 PM PST by refermech
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To: MindBender26; All

16 posted on 02/19/2012 6:19:57 PM PST by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: BenLurkin

Something doesn’t add up. My wife has taken Prozac many years. It was a miracle what it did for her. It’s not a placebo, because there was a period a couple of years ago, when she accidentally quit taking it, and was taking another medicine, not knowing she had quit the Prozac. All her original symptoms came back. It was obvious enough that we did a check to see what was up, and discovered the mixup.

I’m trained as a chemist, and have to pay attention to hard data like presented on Stahl’s program. But something isn’t right.


17 posted on 02/19/2012 6:20:08 PM PST by Chaguito
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To: netmilsmom

Sorry all, but in 86% of cases, those on sugar pills got just as well on those on SSRIs.

Yes, your friend or you got well, but it wasn't the pill!


18 posted on 02/19/2012 6:20:41 PM PST by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: BenLurkin

Drinking a depressant (alcohol) when a person is depressed only makes it worse. Far worse. As a recovering alkie, I have years of experience in doing just that.


19 posted on 02/19/2012 6:28:51 PM PST by Terry Mross (Difference between a conservative / liberal-obvious. Difference between a rep and a dem? None)
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To: MindBender26
Diagnosed with clinical depression in 1995. I've been on an array of drugs since then - the only one that has worked for me is Prozac. Without it, I am not able to function. With it, I'm a productive member of society. It's not a placebo effect in my case - it's essential to my life.



Nos genuflectitur ad non princeps sed Princeps Pacem!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

20 posted on 02/19/2012 6:29:38 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: MindBender26

Citalopram has worked incredibly well for me.


21 posted on 02/19/2012 6:30:59 PM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Now I know how the average lefty would feel if Fred Phelps were elected President.)
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To: MindBender26

Here’s something to consider when you think your life has gotten to the point of depressing you to need a doctors prescription....mental health concerns WILL prevent you from owning firearms.

That would depress the hell out of me. No documented mental health concerns = much happier than I thought!

Of course, some of you might need medication,and should not be anywhere near a firearm if that were the case...


22 posted on 02/19/2012 6:34:29 PM PST by I am bigjohn
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To: Mustang Driver

Pixie Sticks? I’m not sure what that means...


23 posted on 02/19/2012 6:34:46 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Future Meteorologist.)
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To: Mustang Driver

You’re Bipolar,too? Aren’t mood swings swell?

We do need our meds. No two ways about it.


24 posted on 02/19/2012 6:36:20 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Future Meteorologist.)
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To: ladyjane

It worked for me but I lost almost 20 pounds due to vomiting and appetite loss.


25 posted on 02/19/2012 6:37:46 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Future Meteorologist.)
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To: MindBender26

This is what I said...

“Obamacare is not going to treat mild depression. That is all this report is about.

Those drugs are going no where. They are way too valuable in treating other disorders.”

This is what you responded...

“Sorry all, but in 86% of cases, those on sugar pills got just as well on those on SSRIs.

Yes, your friend or you got well, but it wasn’t the pill! “
In a really big and obnoxious font.

First of all, it wasn’t me nor a “friend”. I spent a good amount of my life as an Office Manager for the Head Psychiatrist of a large hospital. Our practice had two doctors and three therapists. I saw many people treated for disorders other than depression who did marvelously some of these meds.

Second, Wellbutrin is NOT an SSRI, Secondary Serotonin Reuptake inhibitor. It is a dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. They work on different chemicals in the brain and are not the same thing.

Soooooo, this report by C-BS is BS. If YOU want to do a happy dance about it, fine. Personally, I take everything that C-BS puts out with a grain of salt and anything about health, all I can say is “watch the other hand”.


26 posted on 02/19/2012 6:41:09 PM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: Mustang Driver

I’m on Cymbalta ane Lamictal. Together they work really well.


27 posted on 02/19/2012 6:41:21 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Future Meteorologist.)
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To: MindBender26
"The difference between the effect of a placebo and the effect of an antidepressant is minimal for most people," says Harvard scientist Irving Kirsch.

Well, that settles it. I'm eating Dark Chocolate four times per day from now on. LOL!

28 posted on 02/19/2012 6:43:15 PM PST by Balata (It's 'WE THE PEOPLE' Obama, not 'WE THE SHEEPLE'!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

“The purpose of medicine is no longer to heal.

The purpose of medicine is to generate cash flow to drug companies..”

http://www.ssristories.com/

http://lamplightersoftware.com/dsm.php

And most of the science in use today underlying the selling of these blockbuster drugs is yanked out of the ear of:

http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/3847/the_occult_world_of_cg_jung.html


29 posted on 02/19/2012 6:45:23 PM PST by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: MindBender26

Exercise has been shown to be more effctive than SSRIs in a number of depression studies.


30 posted on 02/19/2012 6:45:49 PM PST by grumpygresh (Democrats delenda est; zero sera dans l'enfer bientot.)
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To: MindBender26

I suffered from clinical depression for years. I took Prozac for some few years. It didn’t turn me into a soul-less zombie. It worked. I no longer suffer from depression and my doctor stop prescribing Prozac about ten years ago.


31 posted on 02/19/2012 6:49:37 PM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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I have also seen several of these drugs help people with anxiety to the point that they take a non-functioning person and make him/her productive. Their lives are greatly improved. The assertion that execise could replace these drugs is naive and simplistic for people who do actually suffer from a valid medical condition.


32 posted on 02/19/2012 6:51:39 PM PST by AlmaKing
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To: MindBender26

CBS?

60 Minutes?

SeeBS for 60 minutes.

I have no idea whether SSRIs work or not, but I do know that if 60 Minutes reports it, it’s almost certainly false or so politically slanted as to be worthless reporting. If 60 Minutes says it’s bad, then I’d bet dollars to doughnuts it’s not.


33 posted on 02/19/2012 6:52:06 PM PST by FourPeas ("Maladjusted and wigging out is no way to go through life, son." -hg)
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To: grumpygresh

Hard work for that which you respect will in itself bring respect upon yourself which demands hard work.


34 posted on 02/19/2012 6:57:20 PM PST by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)/?)
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To: FourPeas

Thank you.


35 posted on 02/19/2012 6:58:38 PM PST by netmilsmom (Happiness is a choice)
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To: Williams

I pretty much agree with every word in your post.


36 posted on 02/19/2012 7:00:30 PM PST by DemforBush (Six o'clock in *Berlin*. They were having lunch in Cleveland.)
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To: MindBender26

They are not entirely worthless. Prozac, for one example, has driven a few people to suicide, singer Del Shannon among them, thus permanently curing their depression.

What’s worthless is the modern diagnosis of depression as a disturbance in the chemicals of the brain. Well, I tell ya something, by that kinda view, everything you humans do is a disturbance of the chemicals in the brain. Say, on the spur of the moment you decide to buy a trashy magazine while waiting at a supermarket checkout line. You didn’t plan it, you don’t need it, you cannot afford it, what happened? The chemicals in the brain conspired to tell you to do it. I don’t need to go on, do I?

Life is the cause of depression. Fix my fracking problems (PLEEZE!), and I’ll be miraculously cured of depression.


37 posted on 02/19/2012 7:02:17 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: netmilsmom
Strongly suggest you read the study before you condemn the report.

Secondly, i do not doubt the the TOTALITY of he treatment offered by your physicians helped many patients, but the study from Harvard and many from the UK clearly demonstrate that the chemical agents worked only to a very limited amount.

In 86% of the cases, pts on placebos got as well, as quickly, as did those on Prozac.

In addition, in approving Prozac, et.al., FDA ignored multiple studies that showed them to have virtually no effect, and only considered two studies that showed positive results.

Seriously, read the Harvard study. It's not about a claim that pts did not get well, it's about why they got well.

38 posted on 02/19/2012 7:03:39 PM PST by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: Psycho_Bunny
Me, too! I am usually a very positive person, but, several years ago, I got "the blues" for much longer than a day or two. Since I am a Christian, I thought I could just give it up to God and He would take care of it, but that did not seem to be working. My husband convinced me to go visit my doctor of over 25 years at the time and he gave me some samples of Celexa which was a fairly new drug back then. He cautioned me that it might take 3-4 weeks to notice a difference, but my husband will tell you to this day that he could see a change in me in a week! I have a MA in Biology and am a Medical Technologist as well so I know all about the placebo effect, but I strongly believe that the medication made all the difference in my situation. I still take it today, but have cut back to half a tablet.
39 posted on 02/19/2012 7:04:13 PM PST by srmorton (Deut. 30 19: "..I have set before you life and death,....therefore, choose life..")
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To: MindBender26

Prozac is a $4 /month generic at WalMart; so are most of the SSRI’s. They are not making anybody a lot of money. Interesting that Kirsch doesn’t mention the anti-psychotics. They are also over-prescribed , mostly in the primary care setting. Now, a lot of them are $500/month drugs, though sliding toward generic status quickly. I guess Kirsch knows that people really needing anti-psychotics should in no way be encouraged to go off of them. Yet, the same drug companies using similar clinical trial strategies, bring anti-psychotics to market. Does Kirsch think that’s all “placebo effect” as well? Can you exercise your way out of schizophrenia as well?


40 posted on 02/19/2012 7:04:13 PM PST by gusopol3
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To: netmilsmom
Some of the problem is the primary care physicians simply do not investigate possible physical or neurological causes enough before sending patients to a Psychiatrist or prescribing antidepressants. These meds given too the wrong person with the wrong diagnoses can kill them and I do know what I am talking about.

For example lets take anxiety disorders. Most mental health specialist assumes the SSRI protocol or antidepressant protocol is the answer. True but only if it is an actual chemical issue. Just as common for triggering anxiety is Vestibular {meaning Inner Ear, hearing and the Cerebellar portion related too it} issues doctors often miss. Give them antidepressants and you may see a real horrid adverse reaction basically like giving them LSD.

This isn't junk science it was discovered back in the 1970's but only considered seriously in the past decade or so maybe a little longer.

For these patients another medication route must be taken that most Psychiatrist say so no too especially long term. I'm talking about Benzo's. I am one of those patients myself diagnosed 17 years ago with General Anxiety Disorder. No antidepressants would help and actually made it far worse. Xanax helped but only part time.

About a year into it I found an excellent book called Phobia Free by Harold Levinson who linked anxiety and forms of ADD ADHD and even dyslexic symptoms to vestibular disorders. My medical history matched Vestibular origin. It was at that point I had to get firm with the doctors treating me who insisted antidepressants were to be used. Finally I just walked out and found a doctor who had seen it and he understood how too properly prescribe Xanax too where it worked and continued to work even now.

My initial dosage was 2mg twice a day. Wrong dosage wrong strength. New doctor went to .5 or half mg 4 times a day. RELIEF! It worked most the time.

It is Non Phobic Anxiety. IOW no phobia or even a sense of dread. But rather an intolerance to certain auditory and visuals stimulation that I now know from my own research gives me Myoclonic Seizures in the upper Torso.

For what it's worth my wife is a Vestibular patient due to quadriplegia. Antidepressants will put her into Serotonin Syndrome. This is not something you ever want too see or experience. Six doctors missed it and kept calling for more Zoloft.

I looked up her medication Trazadone +Zoloft +adverse reaction and found it in a few minutes after about 5 days into it. I showed the into too the doctors and was told "that's rubbish" exact words used.

Antidepressants are great for those who need them. But some caution needs to be given and patients and their family warned of the potential for this.

41 posted on 02/19/2012 7:07:35 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: MindBender26

When I was young, a doctor put me on one of those medicines. If anything, they seemed to make me ‘worse’. While taking it, I seriously contemplated suicide for no good reason. I stopped taking it, and felt MUCH better. It was like a dark cloud lifted away.

I’d advise someone feeling ‘bad’(as long as it isn’t too often) to simply pick up a bottle of spirits for after work, rather than taking that garbage.


42 posted on 02/19/2012 7:08:31 PM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: MindBender26
As usual, sadly, there are a certain percentage of FReepers who can't wait to post some "witty" missive at the expense of other people's suffering. I guess we're all supposed to buy them a beer and give them a high-five because they were just so freakin' hysterical, don'tcha know.

With that said, I've been on several prescription antidepressants over the years. *What follows is not medical advice*: what I have found works for me as well or better than any prescription antidepressant is a daily supplement of 5-HTP (do an internet search of it) plus vitamins B & D.

43 posted on 02/19/2012 7:09:40 PM PST by Ackackadack
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To: MindBender26
I'm glad I don't watch 60 Minutes.

Having dealt with these meds the majority of this existence, I've never thought of a 'placebo' effect. What ususally happens is once the proper dosage is figured out (which seems to take FOREVER), the theraputic effect lasts about a year and a half, when I guess tolerance builds up or something, and then you have to start that excruciating process all over again.

I'm currently not on any meds, I can recognise the symptoms when they occur and just deal with them. I don't recommend that approach for everyone.

44 posted on 02/19/2012 7:09:57 PM PST by real saxophonist (The fact that you play tuba doesn't make you any less lethal. -USMC bandsman in Iraq)
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To: MindBender26
As politically unpopular as this may be, I am going to present this link: depression study

It turns out that semen from no-condom sex has a pronounced anti-depressant effect on women.

Now no drug company is going to study this, and conservatives will go into fits wondering about what unmarried women should do, but the data is from a very reputable source, and has been reproduced many times. Just Google the terms "semen depression" and see how many hits you get.

No word on what men should do, but I suspect that helping to prevent depression in women is going to have an effect.

45 posted on 02/19/2012 7:13:13 PM PST by CurlyDave
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To: MindBender26
Strongly suggest you read the study before you condemn the report. Secondly, i do not doubt the the TOTALITY of he treatment offered by your physicians helped many patients, but the study from Harvard and many from the UK clearly demonstrate that the chemical agents worked only to a very limited amount. In 86% of the cases, pts on placebos got as well, as quickly, as did those on Prozac. In addition, in approving Prozac, et.al., FDA ignored multiple studies that showed them to have virtually no effect, and only considered two studies that showed positive results. Seriously, read the Harvard study. It's not about a claim that pts did not get well, it's about why they got well.

It's more likely to do with the fact the person actually had depression, anxiety, etc as a symptom of a missed ailment that after a few month cleared itself up. meaning ailment {could even be an infection} clears up and depression does.

Don't get me wrong there are those with long term depression and the meds do work well for them. But I think a lot is simply being missed these days in initial exams.

46 posted on 02/19/2012 7:15:09 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: MindBender26

The only approved treatment by this administration is a monthly governtment check


47 posted on 02/19/2012 7:16:31 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: ladyjane

I tried it and ended up on day 3 with severe nausea and dizziness. I could not walk, lie down or even close my eyes for a moment without wanting to vomit. I called the doc, the RN told me I had an inner ear infection (I know the difference). I simply stopped the drug and was fine in about 8 hours.

Never again.


48 posted on 02/19/2012 7:25:12 PM PST by reformedliberal
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To: ladyjane

“Actually I think Welburtin is fairly effective for folks trying to quit smoking. Not sure how effective it is for depression.”

It is also good for A.D.D. and weight management.

I like Wellbutrin and it is covered on my plan. Doc put me on Aplenzen and when I went t pick up the prescription, it was over 500 bucks.


49 posted on 02/19/2012 7:28:09 PM PST by EQAndyBuzz (Most Conservative in the Primary, the Republican Nominee in the General.)
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To: reformedliberal

You were very lucky she and the doctor were on top of it. Read post 20. Yea I took Wellbutrin once also. Never again. Paxil never again either. Paxil resulted in having to have a folley for two weeks. The things they don’t warn you about LOL.


50 posted on 02/19/2012 7:31:39 PM PST by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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