Posted on 01/02/2020 2:22:54 PM PST by fightin kentuckian
There is confusion about what constitutes “gun registration” I hope to clear up that confusion.
A lot of people wrongfully believe that when you go to a gun store to purchase a firearm and you fill out the ATF Form 4473 for the background check, that this constitutes a “gun registration”. This is not a gun registration, this is a background check to verify that you are legally allowed to possess a firearm. Let me explain.
On the first page of the 4473 under Section A, you write your personal information and answer questions such as, have you ever been convicted of a felony, and then your signature goes at the top of page two. The vendor takes your photo ID and fills out Section B. It’s here that they note the make and serial number of the firearm and then then they call it into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). After about 20 minutes the check is complete and you’re allowed to purchase the firearm.
I know what you’re thinking, they have all of my personal info, a copy of my ID, and the make and serial number of the gun, now explain how this isn’t a registration. There are several very important aspects about how the AFT 4473 is handled that separate this from a registration. First and foremost the ATF 4473 is completely private. It’s treated the same as a tax return and cannot be shared with anyone not even a federal agency or state government. No one other than the NCIS is allowed to know that you attempted to purchase a firearm. If anyone releases a 4473 to the public, they go to jail. Second, you are not bound to the firearm listed on the 4473. In other words the government cannot come to your door in 10 years and demand that you produce the firearm listed on the 4473. That is illegal and that is at the heart of gun registration. Once you own that firearm, it’s your personal property and like all personal property you can do whatever you want with it. You can gift it to a relative or friend, or trade it, or sell it privately without the permission of the government.
Now let’s talk about gun registration. Gun registration is a government’s way of controlling firearms. That firearm is registered to you and your address; you’re not allowed to give it to a relative or friend or sell it unless the government gives you permission. And when you die the government takes ownership of your registered firearms. Also, let’s say that a state government, Virginia for example, has a firearm registry in place and passes a law banning certain firearms or firearms all together. The state, simply refers to its registry and shows up at your front door for a quick and orderly gun confiscation. However, if that firearm isn’t in your house then you’re going to jail. Firearms registries do not keep people safe they do just the opposite and destroy our civil liberties. Historically firearms registries do in fact lead to firearm confiscation.
Currently, California, Connecticut, DC, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey and New York require registration of some or all firearms. And other states like Illinois require a permit in order to purchase a firearm.
In Dec 2012 the Journal News in upstate New York published the names and addresses of all gun permit holders in the Westchester and Rockland county areas of New York and had a map showing their locations. How would you like for thieves or Gov. bureaucrats (same thing) to know exactly what you have in your house? You wouldn’t!
On the flip side of the coin, if you live in Arizona, Alaska, Wyoming, Vermont, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Utah or South Carolina congratulations you live in a state that has the least restrictive gun laws.
For the record, I don’t agree with the current way of purchasing a firearm using the 4473 and the NCIS but it’s the law and I’ll go with it for now however I do not and will not support “red flag” laws or any kind of state registration or confiscation. That is illegal and unconstitutional and is a defacto repeal of our 2nd Amendment rights and must be resisted by all citizens.
This is the ATF a part of the federal government run mostly by democrats. If you think they are not going to use these forms to eventually confiscate our firearms then you are just plan crazy for believing that big lie.
“First and foremost the ATF 4473 is completely private. It’s treated the same as a tax return and cannot be shared with anyone not even a federal agency or state government.”
Theoretically, at least.
Assuming ALL the gatherers & keepers of this info are honest, not commie activist saboteurs.
At least, not yet. Let's see what happens in VA.
Some of the most populous Ststes have similar requirements. Others have it only for handguns and semi autos, for now.
Guess it depends on your definition of “registered.”
Missouri is Constitutional Carry. Now I am back in the peoples Republic of NC.
Since the ascension of the administration of POTUS #44 BHO in NOV 2008, we have been living in a post-Constitutional crisis with no sign of abatement, especially continuing to permit 3rd world refugees and illegal aliens who overwhelm social services, H1-B work visa holders replacing American workers and driving wages down, don’t assimilate, and increase the non-white slice of the U.S. population pie at the expense of the white slice. Simultaneously we are witnessing a popular culture abandoning Christianity, whites postponing marriage and children due to economic hardships, and teacher unions embracing secularism and socialism which they pass on to students who have no understanding. And not the least, a DemonRat party totally embracing socialism and trying to impeach a sitting POTUS based upon traitorous actions within the DemonRat party.
Once the DemonRats regain control of both Houses of Congress and the presidency (Think 2009-2010 when POTUS #44 BHO (D-IL) had control of both Houses and passed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act/ “ObamaCare”), they will revive the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban (FAWB-’94) which was a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. It expired after 10 years in 2004 due to a sunset provision. The FAWB-’94 grandfathered those semi-automatic firearms already legally owned by private citizens which now met the new definition of an assault weapon. Later statistical studies of firearm crimes during 1994-2004 showed the ban had no effect on overall violent crime and effected a minimal decrease on mass shootings.
This new AWB will include revisions to the FAWB-‘94 which will include warping the definition of an “assault weapon” to whatever they choose, e.g., all semi-automatic rifles, semi-auto shotguns, and pump-action shotguns, and making it permanently illegal to own) an assault weapon. All semi-auto firearms already in private possession will likely be required to be registered or not be protected with a grandfather clause, thus leaving them vulnerable to confiscation. The original FAWB-‘94 was upheld by the courts despite many petitions of repeal on grounds of violation of the 2nd Amendment. The DemonRats will justify this new AWB as a necessary means to end the bloodshed of mass shootings, especially in public schools, that have plagued the nation since Columnbine High School in 1999. The new ban would also prohibit the importation into and manufacture of all semi-automatic shoulder arms within the U.S. They might even go so far as to repeal the NFA-‘34 and seize all of the registered Type II/ Class 3 firearms.
But what about the SCOTUS and a new AWB???
My post #15 managed to do it.
Filled out, and relayed via phone during the background check. Your mind may well be fertile, but I'm not sure it's been planted, yet.
I agree. The fact that the make, model and ser number are included on the 4473 means they aren't just checking to see if you are a "prohibited person" or not. If that was the case, my CCW should allow me to skip the form. As was stated, the form precedes NICS. They want your name tied to that ser number.
“First and foremost the ATF 4473 is completely private. It’s treated the same as a tax return and cannot be shared with anyone not even a federal agency or state government. No one other than the NCIS is allowed to know that you attempted to purchase a firearm. If anyone releases a 4473 to the public, they go to jail. Second, you are not bound to the firearm listed on the 4473. In other words the government cannot come to your door in 10 years and demand that you produce the firearm listed on the 4473.”
Yes, and there’s this supernatural being who gives out money in exchange for teeth! And another one who leaves baskets of candy and hides colored eggs around the place! And...
They don’t!
And what the author failed to mention is that when the FFL goes out of business for any reason ALL of his “Bound”Books” are turned over to ATF.
Who then attempt to use them to create a national registry* of gun owners.
He also failed to mention the game ATF is running on FFL holders to make copies of their records BEFORE they go out of business as part of the annual “Compliance Inspection”.
And of course, no one in LE would EVER demand a look at the FFL’s books to implement any new state laws, Fed. laws to the contrary or not. /SARC
*Currently still illegal, but who’s going to enforce that?
Not just Oregon, several states and growing.
Clearly an unconstitutional infringement, but the courts look away.
Yes they are required, the FFL will lose their license if left blank.
In VA, the only thing that gets transmitted to the State Police for the background check is name, birth date, place of birth, ss#, height, weight, and type of gun (pistol, rifle, shotgun)
No model or serial number info.
Form 4473 is retained by the FFL until they close their business.
The ATF can and has come in a copied forms, but not in mass quantities necessary for a registry.
Rare for them to come to the door anymore, they just call or email for a “Forward Trace Request” and you had better have the information PDQ.
Or expect a “Compliance Inspection” going back to your first day of business.
It’s one way they put the screws to FFL’s, you cannot make a living while being “Inspected” and they may take as long as they like.
Almost accurate.
ATF DOES find excuses to copy FFL records, much more convenient now that most dealers with significant sales volume use computerized records.
ATF examiners carry flash drives for this purpose.
As the poster above noted that isn't accurate. ATF and other law enforcement agencies have access to the 4473 forms stored by firearms dealers.
Most Sheriffs in Oregon don’t enforce it. How can they? The only way it would come to light would be in a criminal investigation, and then, I’ll bet they enforce the hell out of it.
I’ve bought and sold weapons in private deals - never keep records because it’s none of their business.
I agree with your statement on the 4473. My father had an FFL from the mid 1950’s until his passing in 1996. He was a small time gunsmith who mostly did ingraving and stock work. He sold very little. When he passed, we heard not a word from the BATF. After a summer of selling and giving stuff away, my mom dropped all record books and files into the burn barrel. Which completed the sell off of his gunshop.
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