Posted on 12/20/2016 7:41:22 AM PST by w1n1
Under World Ghost 1911
We’ve all heard of the quasi-mystical ‘Gun runners’ and ‘illegal gun trade’, but if you’ve ever wondered where those illegal guns could come from, wonder no more.
The Philippine city of Danao has a few manufacturers, making copycat Colts and other 1911s with templates and hand tools. Unfinished though they are, they get handed off to finishers that make these guns look like the real deal. They fire, they're dangerous, and they're being imported. At $230 a sale, these illegal guns aren’t all that expensive, but they are massively illegal.
They're even given fake serial numbers and branding to match the real deal. The manufacturers make a bare bones living, the shippers get a size able chunk of profit, and we get shafted with more gun crime.
If it's this or starvation for the manufacturers, I can hardly blame them, but I can absolutely blame those who stand to turn a profit from these activities. See the video here.
Some of the best small shop gunmakers are in the Philippines.
The ones at Dara Adam Kesh in Pakistan may be better.
Where you have poverty, people can substitute skilled labor in small shops for expensive machine tools.
Some of the best shotguns in the world were made, primarily with files and hand tools, in England during the golden age of double shotguns.
Hundreds of thousands of effective pistols were made in small shops in Europe before WWI.
Is this rag anti-gun ?
Besides, I paid $90 for my 1911 blank, and it’s made in the US.
So, are these guns somehow dangerous like the old Saturday night specials? I’m missing the problem here. Note: I can’t see the video.
Umm they are not manufacturing gun parts in that hut. Someone is bringing them parts and they are fitting them, that’s a big difference.
This is an anti-gun video, just listen to the drama.
I dont doubt the craftsmanship. The integrity of the raw materials might be an issue, but those guns probably mic out just fine.
Give these boys some proper training and tools and WATCH OUT!
So, are these guns somehow dangerous like the old Saturday night specials? I’m missing the problem here. Note: I can’t see the video.
It is hard to say. These small shop craftsmen have honed their skills for decades, but it is hard to believe they have anything like the control of a modern manufacturer over materials and heat treating.
That being said, the .45 ACP is a relatively low pressure round. It is likely that when these pistols fail, it will be gradually, with the most likely result being a failure o fire, as the frames and slides distort and stretch under repeated stress.
It is likely they will give a couple thousand rounds of reliable service. Many pistols are never fired that much over decades.
A modern 1911 is likely to go 20,000 rounds without a problem. Truly modern designs such as the Glock have been said to go 100,000 rds to 200,000 rounds with only minor part breakage and replacement. In fairness, the Glock is just an updated John Moses Browning Hi-power with modern materials and an improved fire control mechanism.
Revolvers often go 100,000 rds with ammo at the pressure levels of the .45 ACP. Increase that to .357 magnum levels, and the service life tends to drop, put much depends on the original design and frame strength.
Crappy steel.
“Crappy steel.”
Cite your sources and testing labs.
I have an Ed Brown modified 1911 Series 70 that has waaay more than 20000 rounds through it, and there are a ton of them around like it.
“A modern 1911 is likely to go 20,000 rounds without a problem. Truly modern designs such as the Glock have been said to go 100,000 rds to 200,000 rounds “
A 1911 can go far beyond 20,000 rounds. Being steel, a 1911 will outshoot a Glock anytime. “Modern” is a stupid word to conclude something is better somehow.
Crappy steel.
There are lots of grades of steel. Perfectly fine firearms can be made with mild steel.
The biggest problem is that mild steel may not have the hardness and tensile strength to resist deformation under repeated firing.
It is difficult to achieve the desired heat treatment and hardness unless you can have a uniform source of steel to start with.
These small shop workmen are working with scrap, and that makes it difficult to control the steel used.
Is this story a joke? The Philippines have three manufacturers who make several different 1911 models for other companies to import:
SAM - makes: American Tactical Imports (ATI) and Iver Johnson
Metro Arms - makes: American Classic, Firestorm, & Barsa
Armscor - makes: Rock Island Armory (RIA), Citadel, High Standard, & STI
With all of those manufacturers on the island, getting 1911 parts, frames, and barrels is probably as easy as it gets. But as far as I know, all of the above 1911s are in fairly high demand, so I’m not sure what ‘downturn’ in demand is driving workers to fabricate off the books firearms, other than greed.
Work at Armscor during the day, bring home some unfinished frames and parts and assemble pistols for the black market at night.
No mystery.
.
Just how are they “illegal?”
Anyone who wishes to can “make” a gun.
.
.
“S Morstan” is an idiot.
.
Scary video propaganda. It opens with a scene of mass produced blanks that are sent to a fitter then to a finisher. These are not made from scrap metal by hand in a jungle hut.
.
>> “These small shop workmen are working with scrap” <<
How do you know that?
I can buy an “80%” AR receiver and finish it using the jigs that come with it, and my drillpress; does that make it “scrap?”
.
.
>> “Scary video propaganda” <<
And that’s all it is.
.
A 1911 can go far beyond 20,000 rounds. Being steel, a 1911 will outshoot a Glock anytime. “Modern” is a stupid word to conclude something is better somehow.
Different designs. The real single action trigger on the 1911 gives it an edge in ease of shooting accurately. A target grade or accurized 1911 will be a little bit more accurate, capable of say a 1 inch group at 25 yards instead of a 2.5 inch group at 25 yards which is common for a stock Glock. But the vast majority of shooters cannot shoot anywhere near that well. 2.5 inch groups at 25 yards is good combat accuracy.
Out of the box 1911A1 pistols tend to shoot about the same groups as a Glock, maybe a little better at 2 inches at 25 yards. It is very little practical difference.
There are several accounts of Glocks continuing to be reliable shooters far past 100,000 rounds. You just do not see anywhere near that service life from 1911A1 pistols.
Here is some discussion from the 1911forum.com:
“As regards barrel life expectancy, according to Bart Bobbitt, the US Navy ran a test the late 1960s, using an accurized softball competition M1911A1 pistol shooting Remington 185-grain .45 ACP jacketed wadcutter match ammo. At the outset the gun printed 20-shot 2.5” groups at 50 yards out of a machine rest. About every 5000 rounds, it was put back into the machine rest and retested. In each of these tests through 25,000 rounds, it still shot the same size groups. At 30,000 rounds, the groups had opened up to about 3.5”; at 35,000 rounds, the groups were about 4.5”.”
But, as mentioned, very few shooters actually shoot thousands of rounds a year.
Some of the advantages of the updated Browning design that is the Glock, is using the ejection port as the locking system, (pioneered with the Hi Power), instead of separate locking lugs , elimination of the locking link system, and the elimination of the grip safety. The grip safety had a reputation for wearing and malfunctioning, causing unintentional discharges. As far as I am concerned, the removal of the magazine disconnect in the Glock design is an improvement over the Hi Power. The ease of maintenance of the Glock is an improvement.
.
>> “These small shop workmen are working with scrap” <<
How do you know that?
I can buy an “80%” AR receiver and finish it using the jigs that come with it, and my drillpress; does that make it “scrap?
But the reports that I have read over the years indicated they used scrap steel. That may have changed. On some parts, scrap of nearly any kind would be adequate, on others, the steel type and heat treating could make a significant long term difference.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.