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Truth On Fiscal Cliff Negotiations
Flopping Aces ^ | 11-29-12 | James Raider

Posted on 11/29/2012 9:29:00 AM PST by Starman417

We apprehensively advance through this nail biting moment in history as a great Nation floats, uncertain, caught in a holding pattern, hoping its leadership will find wisdom enough to avert the so called Fiscal Cliff, even if most of us don’t fully comprehend what such a cliff entails, or even if such a thing exists. We’re too busy struggling, hanging on to whatever we have, hoping for stability, and hoping that tomorrow brings some relief to our stress.

So let’s look for a little insight into what astute and gifted minds are really doing deep in the core of the negotiations apparently so critical to the very future of the Nation. Let’s dig for a sign of prescient coherence determining the very nature of our future.

Here is a discussion/interview which John Mauldin recently conducted with Rob Lehman and David Krone, the chiefs of staff for Senator Rob Portman (R-OH), and of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV), respectively. Lehman and Krone are two very key individuals in the current budget negotiations. Mauldin, who writes on economics and investments, usually refrains from using an ideologically tempered pen. Late in the somewhat non-descript forty minute discussion, a head snapper gets dropped by Lehman, who works on the Republican side of the negotiating table.

At minute 37:00 of the linked video Lehman (R) makes a statement about spending. “We’re talking about reductions in the growth of spending.” He confirms that there will be no reduction in spending. Krone (D), sitting next to him, is drooling out of camera shot. Washington does not spend less year-to-year. Ever. Is that clear? Negotiators are only negotiating amounts of spending increases and areas of such increases in spending. That’s it. Don’t believe anyone standing at a podium performing waffling prevarications in Washington while making claims of imminent spending cuts.

(excerpt) Read more at floppingaces.net...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; Politics
KEYWORDS: cliff; cuts; fiscal; obama; rate; spending

1 posted on 11/29/2012 9:29:06 AM PST by Starman417
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To: Starman417

Is a French Revolution II like uprising brewing?


2 posted on 11/29/2012 9:34:35 AM PST by samadams2000
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To: Starman417

Push this back into Obama’s face. As Mark Levin brilliantly articulated, Propose a middle class tax CUT. Anyone who pays taxes under $250k/year get a cut and all other rates stay the same. Obama will lose the argument that he cares about the middle class. Also stop letting Obama act like he is giving the middle class a tax cut by simply agreeing to allow the rates we’ve been paying for almost a decade to remain! It’s insane that we are playing into his hand and allowing him to frame the argument.


3 posted on 11/29/2012 9:34:40 AM PST by Phillyred
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To: Starman417
"A measure of wheat for a penny! A measure of wheat for a penny! But touch not the oil or the wine."

A loaf of bread will cost the tax payer an entire days wages - but touch not the freeloaders Obomaophones, free cable TV's, or their free Internet access.

4 posted on 11/29/2012 9:42:42 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: Starman417
The cliff is not $16T deep, or even the $20T deep that we will see by 2016 due to actions taken in O's first administration. The cliff is at least $86T deep when you look at the unfunded depths of social security, medicaid, medicare, military retirements, etc.

The scary part is not that D.C. has no adult leadership. It is that the adults are all in collusion with one another to maintain the status quo of their elected positions and doing anything rational would get them fired by the long line with their hands out.

5 posted on 11/29/2012 9:43:01 AM PST by Pecos (Double tap: the only acceptable gun control)
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To: Starman417

Here’s a deal which could be made:

GOP agrees to raise the debt limit.

Dems agree not to raise current tax rates.

Kick the can down the road to the next election.

Not ideal, but probably the best we could hope for with divided government.


6 posted on 11/29/2012 9:44:45 AM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Pecos
The scary part is not that D.C. has no adult leadership.

The only tax problem we have in this country is the working class being overtaxed. They're no longer allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor. What we have in DC is spending crises.
Cut the spending in half, and all will be well. If we stop paying people NOT to work, they'll find a job whether they want to or not.

(No man should be used as another mans slave)

7 posted on 11/29/2012 9:50:54 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: Phillyred
On January 1 everyone's taxes go up. The so-called Bush tax cuts were extended by Obama. Obama has already proposed extending the Bush tax cuts to the middle class and allowing the rates for the "rich" to revert back to the Clinton rates. Obama has proposed that Congress pass now the Bush tax cuts for the middle class. He states that we can address the "rich" later.

Propose a middle class tax CUT. Anyone who pays taxes under $250k/year get a cut and all other rates stay the same.

If the Reps propose reducing taxes even below those now being paid by the middle class under the Bush tax cuts, how will the additional lost revenue be paid for? And letting the other rates "stay the same" would mean that Congress would have to extend the Bush tax cuts for the "rich." Recognizing that such posturing is just political eyewash and doesn't have a chance of being passed by the Senate or signed by the WH, I don't see the advantage of making such a proposal. It will just play into the Dem narrative that we have a revenue problem, not a spending problem.

We helped Obama frame the argument in the 2010 lame duck session when the GOP agreed to just extending the Bush tax cuts until January 2013 instead of making them permanent. Then, if Obama wins in 2012, as he did, the Dems would have had to take an overt action to get a tax increase on the wealthy. Now it is by default, no action needed. The Dems outsmarted the Stupid Party once again.

Sequestration was also another ploy by Obama to prevent spending cuts. The GOP must now try to defend draconian spending cuts for defense. No doubt the carrot will be increased revenue thru higher taxes. And the entitlement programs will not be cut but kicked down the road increasing our debt and deficit. We are screwed.

8 posted on 11/29/2012 9:58:31 AM PST by kabar
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
Kick the can down the road to the next election.

THEY have underground complexes to hide in or private jets to get them out of the country fast - at OUR expense.

Right now, they're just adding to their own accounts. This has nothing to do with us. When the SHTF, they'll be long gone.

Welfare breeds welfare. This is unsustainable. Half the country does nothing but consume, and they've consumed it all. When other countries figure this out, they'll stop lending to us, and the freeloaders will be on their own. That's when we'll be seeing the politicians mysteriously disappear.

This is what happens when humanism replaces a higher power. Self serving politicians become our Gods. They control the government manna. When the manna runs out, they'll be nowhere to be found.

9 posted on 11/29/2012 10:01:54 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: samadams2000
If republicans had any backbone they would legislate drastic cuts to the Federal Dept of Education, cut the EPA money to the bone, defund the Executive Office of the President (staff support), and restrict all government travel.

Give Congress a 10% pay cut to start after the elections.

See then if Obama has alternative suggestions to cut spending.

10 posted on 11/29/2012 10:10:35 AM PST by Rapscallion ( OBAMA: You own it now. See if you can govern it.)
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To: Starman417

Hey GOP. Vote to raise taxes and plan on merging with the Whig Party next year. Pathetic losers playing in a very serious grown up game.


11 posted on 11/29/2012 10:12:52 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the Constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: April Lexington
Hey GOP. Vote to raise taxes

"Read my lips....no tax increases."

12 posted on 11/29/2012 10:18:06 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: Phillyred

Dirty little secret that nobody will acknowledge - unless taxes are raised on ALL income levels, and the base of taxable income is extended LOWER than it now is, there is not, and never will be, any hope of ever raising revenue to even close the gap between spending and cash flow INTO the Treasury.

EVERYBODY should have skin in the game. A flat income tax, starting with Dollar One, same rate all the way to the maximum income step. Alternatively, a consumption tax, like a national sales tax, collected at the point of sale, no exemptions for any goods or services, no deductions.

Or stop spending to fund “Santa Claus” giveaway programs, distributing unearned benefits by government fiat.


13 posted on 11/29/2012 10:27:30 AM PST by alloysteel (Bronco Bama - the cowboy who whooped up and widened the stampede.)
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To: alloysteel
Or stop spending to fund “Santa Claus” giveaway programs, distributing unearned benefits by government fiat.

That's where the real problem lies. Half the population is being paid NOT to work and pay taxes. They produce nothing. They consume everything the other half produces - and they continue to breed and feed!

14 posted on 11/29/2012 10:46:40 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: alloysteel

If we go over the cliff, the reimposition of the pre Bush tax rates will broaden the tax base.

I’m not sure huge increases in defense spending are a bad thing. We live in a world where one EMP nuclear weapon, launched from a containership offshore by any number of nations or terrorist groups, can destroy the power grid and our way of life immediately as well as result in tens of millions dying of starvation. We are spending nothing today to counter the EMP threat. After an EMP attack our hundreds of billions of dollars of high tech military hardware and missiles will be worthless.

Much of the rest of military spending goes to having a force in place for the president to launch wars around the globe anytime he wishes. With the exception of 9/11, since WWII the wars we’ve been involved in related to our imperialist foreign policy, not real threats against the homeland. Even looking at 9/11, we could have dealt with Al Queda without a decade long invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. In addition to multiple surgical strikes to wipe out Al Queda we should have forced the Saudi’s to cut off their funding of terrorism. Just as with defending against EMP, that isn’t something the neocon hawks were willing to do.

I hate to say it but it may be time to stop fighting the losing defensive battle. Perhaps McConnell and Boehner should stop negotiating in secret behind closed doors. Stand out on the Capitol steps, outline the Republican plan in very specific detail including posting it on the internet. Then dare Obama to detail his plan. Let the media scream about the cuts resulting in starving school children and padding the pocketbooks of the wealthy. Stand firm and demand Obama lay his plan in detail on the table for the American people. If they stand firm, he will have to lay out his tax cuts with no spending cuts (except defense) and possibly actual spending increases. When Obama has put his entire plan in the public domain, in specific detail, go before the American people and say, “We disagree with the President’s plan and believe it is the wrong path for the country for the following reasons .. . . However, the people spoke in the last election. We must eliminate partisan gridlock for the good of the country so we are prepared to vote for the President’s plan as he has presented it. This way, we can get away from the partisan bickering and blaming the other side for failure. The President’s plan will either work or it won’t, and he and his party can be judged on its success or failure.”

The likelihood is the country will go into a deep recession and the Republicans can run on the message - “We’ve tried socialism, lets go back to traditional American values and economics.”

The alternative is the fools game of negotiating with Obama while he does nothing and blames Republican stubbornness for gridlock. On this path the end game is the Republican caving (like last year) and still getting blamed for everything bad.

I’m convinced the only way out of this mess is to let the American people experience hard core socialism for a few years. Too many young people have grown up enjoying the middle class lifestyle provided by their parents without understanding the work required to deliver it. The socialist state will demand an ever increasing share of their incomes to sustain itself and the economy will wither under the weight of government spending. Ultimately they will wake up and realize socialism doesn’t work. If they don’t, it is their world.

The big economic crash is coming. It needs to come on Obama’s watch and he needs to be blamed for it. Give him what he wants and when it comes he has no excuses.


15 posted on 11/29/2012 11:02:19 AM PST by Soul of the South
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To: Starman417

16 posted on 11/29/2012 11:10:34 AM PST by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Soul of the South
The big economic crash is coming. It needs to come on Obama’s watch and he needs to be blamed for it. Give him what he wants and when it comes he has no excuses.

I agree. When the Obomaphones stop working, and the checks stop showing up in the mail box the 1st of every month, the people have no one to blame but the democrats. They promised a lifetime "everything for free" utopia in exchange for a vote - and then couldn't deliver.

17 posted on 11/29/2012 11:12:37 AM PST by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: Travis McGee
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

18 posted on 11/29/2012 11:14:48 AM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: TurboZamboni

In that the gov is spending substantially more than it is raising in revenue there is no effective corrrespondence between income and expenditures. If no relationship exists between income and outgo there is no need to raise taxes or any other revenue. The government simply goes all in by printing whatever money it decides to spend. Since there is no larger enterprise than the government by this device it becomes the economy. How is this different from our current situation?


19 posted on 11/29/2012 11:35:57 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (Better the devil we can destroy than the Judas we must tolerate.)
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To: Soul of the South

I agree with you..

but, let’s put it simply, so that the pubs in congress can understand it...

when you negotiate with yourself, you are the only one that will lose....


20 posted on 11/29/2012 11:58:59 AM PST by joe fonebone (The clueless... they walk among us, and they vote...)
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To: Starman417

At minute 37:00 of the linked video Lehman (R) makes a statement about spending. “We’re talking about reductions in the growth of spending.” He confirms that there will be no reduction in spending. Krone (D), sitting next to him, is drooling out of camera shot. Washington does not spend less year-to-year. Ever. Is that clear? Negotiators are only negotiating amounts of spending increases and areas of such increases in spending. That’s it. Don’t believe anyone standing at a podium performing waffling prevarications in Washington while making claims of imminent spending cuts.”

OK if there’s the same amount spent next year as this year, where do the defense cuts figure in to it?


21 posted on 11/29/2012 12:16:16 PM PST by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: joe fonebone

Perfect!


22 posted on 11/29/2012 3:37:04 PM PST by Soul of the South
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