Protestantism didn't end 350 years ago

08/07/2010 | WesternCulture

[WesternCulture]

Too few school children of today grow up knowing what Gustavus Adolphus - the Lion of the North - accomplished in his lifetime.

Northern Europe, especially Scandinavia, of today is nothing like "Trainspotting".

Northern Germany, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Britain of today disposes of more industrial plants, more of well reputed universities and more of well educated workers than any other comparable part of the planet.

Why?

In one word:

Protestantism.

Regardless of the differences between the largest Lutheranist church on Earth, the Church of Sweden, and the Church of England which understands itself to be both Catholic and Reformed, Non-Catholic Christian tradition has conquered the planet.

As a nation, The United States of America of course bows down to no other power, but no one could deny that the US in many ways is a product of Protestantism.

So what to do with it?

My country, tiny Sweden, has proved Russia is defeatable (we took Moscow unlike Hitler and Napoleon managed to) and we also managed to lay siege to Germany (in the 17th century) for 15 years.

This, indeed, is a cornerstone of Western history:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwKYqSyoopw

These simple historical facts few obedient, servant teachers in the ugly regimes of China, Venezuela and Russia today acknowledge in their daily missions.

Chavez & Co. don't scare me much, neither does China and Russia.

But they are hinders in our way and we Protestants should take their mismanagement of society into account.

What is my point?

Despite two world wars laying Europe in ruins two times within a century, Western Civilization did not stop.

It will go on and Americans ought not to be surprised if countries like Sweden and Denmark etc continue to send troops to Afghanistan.

We Westerners quarell a lot internally, yes, but we don't let each other down when it really counts.

As all of Europe watched the horror of the WTC-attacks on our TV screens, we too felt like being attacked.

To all of America:

America is not alone.

Now, let's organize ourselves like Gustavus Adolphus once organized his people and do what is eternally right.

There is no other way ahead.

[Hieronymus]

One doesn`t actually give away an abstract `GDP` one gives away food, guns, ammo. What was Finland lacking that Sweden supplied? Did they send troops?

[Hieronymus]

I would think that the problem is more that the Swedes aren`t breeding that well either.

You still haven`t addressed my point in post 14,that the Reformation made the Church subservient to the State and various temporal goals, which, measured by State and temporal standards, may be a good thing for a time, but it certainly hasn`t been a good thing for the Church. More details at 14.

[WesternCulture]

- Laughed my Viking *ss off!

Please make several more contributions like that to threads I initiate.

If you carry on in the same fashion you will one day, perhaps, become an old fashioned European wearing a medal engraved with the words

“You are now a member of this dis..”

Anyhow, traditional European culture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeMehLHyGZU

[markomalley]

Always a pleasure.

(Grew up in Minnesnowta, so I am well familiar with the jokes)

BTW, you want to solve your perceived problem? Start reproducing so you don’t have to import Poles to do your work (that’s where most of your eveeeeeeeiiiiiil Papist influence comes from, all of about 140,000 in the entire country of Sweden and 55,000 in Norway).

And kick your Lutheran pastors in the tail so that they interest people other than 156 year old widows to go to Lutheran church on Sunday (Lutefisk, after all, is nothing but Cod soaked in embalming fluid, so the ladies are well preserved).

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Protestants suck the joy out of life.”

And this thread has apparently sucked the intelligence out of Sweden leaving only “WesternCulture” behind.

[Gapplega]

As a fully Polish Papist, our invasion plan for Romish domination of Northern Europe remains intact! lol. If it doesn’t work out, we Poles know how to be great service workers.

[Nosterrex]

I am a Lutheran, but this treatise on Protestantism is way too chauvinistic for my taste. The Lutheran Reformation did produce many good things, such as universal education, community chest, the so-called Protestant work ethic, the importance of vocation, and Lutheran chorales, but there is a difference between Lutheranism and Protestantism as it is understood today. Protestantism is predominately Reformed theology, not Lutheran. Looking at the sad state of Christianity in Europe, I would be cautious about talking about the triumph of Protestantism. It is hanging on by life support. Sweden at one time was a powerful military force, but that was centuries ago. A child with a stick could conquer Sweden today.

[Cronos]

Ah, yes, Sweden. A country where you pay a lovely amount of your money in direct and indirect income tax. From a pay of "100", the Employer first pays "32" in Income tax (direct - 32%), on top of that the Employer also pays an additional "31.42" in Employers social fees (indirect - 31.42%). And then you have 25% sales tax.

At the end of 2008, 72,9% of Swedes belonged to the Church of Sweden, a number that decreased yearly by more than one per cent during the last decade (2000 - 2009). In 2000, 82,9% [2] of the Swedes belonged to the church of Sweden, by the end of 2009, this figure was 71,3%. Church of Sweden services are sparsely attended (hovering in the single digit percentages of the population. In 2009, nearly 72,000 Swedes left the Church of Sweden, considerably more than in 2008 when 50,504 Swedes left the Church of Sweden. 5% of the population is Muslim, with Mąlmo a Muslim ghetto where Swedish blonde girls get gang-raped.

Phil Zuckerman, an Associate Professor of Sociology at Pitzer College writes of several academic sources who have in recent years placed atheism rates in Sweden between 46% and 85%, with one source reporting that only 17% of respondents self-identified as "atheist".

the US is far more religious, while Sweden is increasingly irreligious (at least the non-Muslims)

After 1932, Sweden was helped by its neutrality in World War Two. Unlike Germany, Sweden’s major cities were not bombed flat. The Social Democrats, then, had a great deal of wealth produced by capitalism and undamaged by war to share as political spoils.

According to a Swiss federal government statistical comparison of Switzerland and Sweden, the percentage of Swedish unmarried pregnancies in 1996 was 54% percent – roughly equal to the black community in the United States. The reason for this high rate of unwed pregnancies is apparent in both cases, and it is not illegal drugs: the state gives incentives to unwed mothers in the form of social benefits, with predictable results. Why go through the hassle of getting married or staying married when a government check means that such a decision has no practical consequences for your life? Over the long-term, a 54% illegitimacy rate can only undermine Swedish society.

as reported on page A1 of the August 29, 1997, Washington Post,

From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers.

Margot Wallstrom, the Swedish Minister of Health and Social Affairs, told the Post that "there was nothing secret about the sterilization program. It was carried out in the light of public debate at a time when Swedes believed they were creating a society that would be the envy of the world." The Swedish Institute for Racial Biology, founded in 1922, was the first national institute of the kind. The Swedes were also the first to sterilize the mentally ill, beginning in 1934

One woman, aged 72 at the time of the Post article, was sterilized "because she couldn’t read a blackboard because she did not have eyeglasses and was deemed to be retarded."

the Irish Times and Agence-France Presse reported on April 7, 1998, a Swedish Television documentary reveals that Sweden lobotomized perhaps 4500 "undesirables," in some cases without the consent of their families:

Some 500 lobotomies were conducted on patients who were not from mental hospitals...including a seven-year-old boy in Umeaa in northern Sweden in 1949. Diagnosed as "mentally retarded, hyperactive", he died during surgery."...One man featured in the documentary, who was lobotomised in 1963, is now 67 and has no concept of time, still believing that his children are small.

In part, the benevolent socialist government of Sweden hoped to discover whether "lobotomies could cure alcoholics and criminals."

Sweden also "forced hundreds of ‘mentally deficient’ Swedes to let their teeth rot after being force-fed candy in dental experiments."

Yup, Sweden is a real example for the Christian world.

Considering Gustav Adolph, The German Socialist Franz Mehring (1846–1919) wrote a biography of Gustavus Adolphus with a Marxist perspective on the actions of the Swedish king during the Thirty Years' War. In it, he makes a case that the war was fought over economics and trade rather than religion.

In his book "Ofredsår" ("Years of Warfare"), the Swedish historian and author Peter Englund argues that there was probably no single all-important reason for the king's decision to go to war. Instead, it was likely a combination of religious, security, as well as economic considerations.

This view is supported by German historian Johannes Burkhardt who writes that Gustavus entered the 30 Years War exactly 100 years after the publication of the Confessio Augustana, the core confession of faith of the Lutheran Church, and let himself be praised as its saviour. Yet Gustavus' own "manifesto of war" does not mention any religious motivations at all but speaks of political and economical reasons. Sweden would have to maintain its integrity in the face of several provocations and agressions by the Habsburgian Empire. The manifesto was written by scholar Johann Adler Salvius in a style common of the time that promotes a "just war". Burkhardt argues that traditional Swedish historiography constructed a defensive interest in security out of that by taking the manifesto's text for granted. But to defend Stockholm, the occupation of the German Baltic territories would have been an extreme advance and the imperial Baltic Sea fleet mentioned as a threat in the manifesto had never reached more than a quarter of the size of the Swedish fleet. Moreover it was never maintained to challenge Sweden but to face the separatist Netherlands. So if ruling the Baltic Sea was a goal of Swedish strategy, the conquests in Germany were not a defensive war but an act of expansion. From Swedish Finland, Gustavus advanced along the Baltic Sea coast and eventually to Augsburg and Munich and he even urged the Swiss Confederacy to join him. This was no longer about Baltic interests but the imperial capitol of Vienna and the alpine passes were now in close reach of the Swedish army. Another point mentioned by Burkhardt is the Gothic legacy of the Swedes, which had become a political program. The Swedish king was also "Rex Gotorum", (Latin: King of the Goths) and the list of kings was traced back to the Gothic rulers to construct continuity. Prior to his embarkment to northern Germany, Gustavus urged the Swedish nobility to follow the example of conquests set by their Gothic ancestors. Had he lived longer, it would have been likely that Gustavus had reached out for the imperial crown of the Holy Roman Empire

And, of course, in 1809, Imperial Russia kicked Swedish butt and conquered Finland. As a result of the war, the eastern third of Sweden was established as the autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland within the Russian Empire.

Or, let's go earlier to the Russo-Swedish War (1741–1743), the Hats' Russian War, By June 1742, the 35,000-strong Russian army ousted 17,000 Swedes from Hamina (Swedish: Frederikshamn). As the war unfolded, Lewenhaupt's position deteriorated and he was forced to retreat towards Helsinki (Swedish: Helsingfors). In August, Lacy captured Porvoo (Swedish: Borgå) and Savonlinna (Swedish: Nyslott) and encircled the entire Swedish army near Helsinki, where he received Lewenhaupt's capitulation on September 4.

Or, lets go to the Great Northern War of 1700 to 1721, which resulted in a massive Swedish defeat, smashing it's status as a great power.

[Cronos]

Come on now, don't forget all the money that neutral Sweden traded iron ore with the Nazis, reaching 10 million tons per year. As Germany's preparations for war became more apparent and the risk of another war became obvious, international interest in Swedish ore increased. At the time, British intelligence estimated that German industry relied heavily on Swedish iron ore and a decrease or halt in Swedish ore exports could have been disastrous for German military efforts. This is a contentious view that has been debated in the aftermath of the war. Sir Ralph Glyn, a British Member of Parliament, claimed that if Sweden stopped their exports it could lead to an end of the war within six months

This probably was all related to Sweden's courageous and principled stand against the Nazis in World War II. While America stood idly by, the Swedes poured out their blood and treasure to defend Christian civilization.

[Cronos]

That is why any attempt by Ohbummer to disarm the US population is an attempt to put the last nail in the coffin on the greatnes that is the USA

[Cronos]

how we Swedes were aided by Britain and France while trying to stop Stalin from raping Finland.

Oh really? Despite several pleas from the Finnish government, the Swedish government chose not to engage militarily when the Red Army advanced during the Winter War.In the "Statsrådsdiktamen" on 19 February 1940, Sweden's king Gustav V publicly rejected pleas from Finland's government for military intervention in the Winter War to help defend Finland against the Soviet invasion. This statement from the king was aimed at pressuring Finland to accept harsh Soviet peace conditions and to quiet a strong Swedish activist public opinion advocating participation in the war. The statement had this effect, but was also to produce substantial bitterness in Finland.

During the war, Sweden's government rejected a total of three formal pleas from Finland's government to engage militarily in Finland's defense against the Soviet Union.

I will agree that individual Swedes wanted to help, but the country as a whole did NOT help Finland during it's hour of need. The Finns defended themselves.

[Cronos]

well, Nordics are Nordics — whether Scandanavian or German or Flemish. Though of course, you could say that the strongest and toughest Goths went south to Spain where they set up the Visigoth Empire.

[Cronos]

The Finns handled themselves splendidly during WWII as a small country trying to survive. The Swedes — not so much. And they did not come to the Finn’s aid.

[Cronos]

The winged hussars of Hetman Stanisław Żołkiewski (4000 men) defeated a numerically superior force of about 35,000 - 40,000 Russians, Swedes and Finns at the Battle of Kłusino on 4 July 1610 (200 years after Grunwald). Soon after the battle Vasily IV was ousted by the boyars and Żółkiewski entered Moscow with little opposition. Boyars have proclaimed the new Tsar (Emperor) of Russia of Polish prince Władysław IV Waza. He claimed the Tsar's title from 1610 to 1634 but never assumed the throne.

[Cronos]

“Swedish” Troops no, “combined Russian-Swedish troops” given the blessing of Tsar Vasily IV pushed out the troops of the pretender Tsar from Moscow. No invasion or great war, unlike when Napoleon or the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth occupied Muscowy

[Cronos]

Poland never captured Moscow according to you, eh? Then what about Hetman Żółkiewski in 1610? And, why would England want to occupy Muscowy that was so far away and was mostly allies with it except during the Crimean war? Ditto for Austria -- except for WWI, Austria-Hungary was mostly friends with Russia as they had common foes -- first the Turks and then the Prussians. Finally, America never fought a war with the USSR, hence no possibility of occupying Muscowy

[Cronos]

Sweden took Moscow. Napoleon never did.

Napoleon never did? Then what exactly happened according to you after the Battle of Borodinskaya on 7 sep 1812? Napoleon said he entered Moscow as victor, the Russian armies retreating to the east. Do you doubt this?

[Cronos]

gave away something like 30%-40% of it’s GDP to Finland on an annual basis in order to aid her neighbor country in the struggle against Stalin.

Proof?

[Cronos]

This treatise is more on the glories of Sweden....

[Hieronymus]

- I’m not an enemy of Catholicism. Basically, I just claim Northern Europe shouldn’t be dominated by Rome

---

Rome doesn’t dominate anything. The Church is far too large to be micromanaged, or even supervised centrally, on any but the most basic levels. Try vetting an average of about 20 new bishops a month and supervising 5000 of them with one central office and a few hundred intriguing and infighting bureaucrats to help you (Rome is Italian not Prussian, and while the bureaucracy has become more international, the Italian flavour still dominates). Even when populations were substantially smaller, distance precluded micromanagement. Rome “dominated” mainly in the sense that it might backstop bishops telling kings when they had gone too far. Nationalizing the church stopped this “domination” to the convenience of the kings and those who wished to seize church and monastic lands.

In the end, the most important question for the reformation has not to do with dominance but theological truth. The fruit of the Lutheran and Anglican experiments theologically, at the 500 year mark, seems conclusively negative. Calvinists and Anabaptists still have some grounds to stand on for consistancy in this area, and Lutherans and Anglicans who are in effect detached from the organic development of their own tradition, and Rome is as imperfect as it ever was. As Pius VI (or was it Pius VII) said to Napoleon: “You silly little man. If we and are priests could not destroy the Church in 18 centuries, what makes you think that you can do it.?”