Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Bose-Einstein condensate created at room temperature
Vortex-L ^ | Feb 6 2013 | Axil Axil

Posted on 02/07/2013 12:43:29 PM PST by Kevmo

RE: [Vo]:Bose-Einstein condensate created at room temperature

Jones Beene Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:13:22 -0800

Yes they can. In fact this could be important for LENR, should it be broad enough to include other boson quasiparticles, such as the magnon.

The definitions are similar: polaritons are quasiparticles resulting from strong coupling of electromagnetic waves with an electric or magnetic dipole-carrying excitation. The magnon could be imagined to be the subset of that - where the coupling is only magnetic. However, it may be only a partial subset with other features included.

Polaritons describe the dispersion of light (photons) with an interacting phonon resonance; while the magnon would describe the dispersion of spin current with an interacting resonance.

Using the same general terms, superconductivity where the Cooper pair is the boson, would describe the dispersion of charge within an interacting phonon resonance. (the last is my interpretation, which may not be correct).

Thus we have a linking of three BEC phenomena which may happen either at room temperature or close- in the case of the RTSC. From: Axil Axil

-------------------------------------------------------------

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/02/bose-einstein-condensate-created-at-room-temperature/

Bose-Einstein condensate created at room temperature

-----------------------------------------

Can those interested in LENR draw any lessons from this formulation?

Cheers: Axil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt of Arstechnica article

Bose-Einstein condensate created at room temperature

Instead of atoms, condensation was achieved using quasiparticles.

by Matthew Francis- Feb 6 2013, 9:15am PST

Physical Sciences 27

Aluminum-Nitrogen nanowires, relatives of the ones used in these experiments.

NIH

Bose-Einstein condensation is a dramatic phenomenon in which many particles act as though they were a single entity. The first Bose-Einstein condensate produced in the laboratory used rubidium atoms at very cold temperatures—work that was awarded the 2001 Nobel Prize in physics. Other materials, like superconductors, exhibit similar behavior through particle interactions.

These systems typically require temperatures near absolute zero. But Ayan Das and colleagues have now used a nanoscale wire to produce an excitation known as a polariton. These polaritons formed a Bose-Einstein condensate at room temperature, potentially opening up a new avenue for studying systems that otherwise require expensive cooling and trapping.

Bosons are part of a large class of particles that can have the same quantum configuration or state. This is in contrast to the fermions, the category including electrons, protons, and neutrons, which resist having the same state. (This resistance, known as the Pauli exclusion principle, leads to the presence of different energy states, or orbitals, occupied by the electrons of atoms.) At extremely low temperatures, bosons can coalesce into a single quantum system known as a Bose-Einstein condensate (BEC), named for Satyendra Nath Bose and Albert Einstein.

Many atoms are bosons, though this characteristic doesn't generally make any difference except at high density or very low temperatures. However, thanks to the wonders of quantum physics, interactions within materials can produce quasiparticles. These are excitations that act like particles, but don't exist independent of the medium in which they occur.

As with normal particles, quasiparticles are either fermions or bosons, obeying the same general rules as their free cousins. For example, one widely accepted model for superconductivity describes the phenomenon as a Bose-Einstein condensation of quasiparticles formed by pairs of electrons. As with atomic BECs, quasiparticle BECs tend to form under very cold temperatures.

Another quasiparticle can be formed by the interactions between photons and excitations in a material. The resulting polaritons are low-mass bosons that should be able to condense at higher temperatures—possibly including room temperature. One signature of a polariton BEC is the production of coherent light—effectively, the quasiparticles act like a laser. Several experiments have created polariton BECs, though still at relatively cold temperatures.

The current study embedded a very thin wire—a nanowire—in a cavity designed to produce standing waves of microwave photons. The nanowire was an alloy of aluminum, gallium, and nitrogen, but with varying amounts of aluminum. The irregular composition created a de facto "trap" for the polaritons. A wire of uniform composition couldn't form a BEC—fluctuations within the material would destroy the condensation, even at low temperatures.

To bypass this, the researchers gradually decreased the amount of aluminum in the alloy to zero in the center of the nanowire, then bookended the aluminum-free segment with a region containing a relatively high amount of aluminum. The microwaves from the cavity interacted with the material, generating polaritons. These drifted preferentially along the wire toward the aluminum-free zone, where they collected and condensed.

In other words, the electronic properties of the material itself replaced the need for cooling, allowing the quasiparticles to gather and condense into a BEC. The experimenters confirmed this effect by detecting the telltale light emission.

This experiment marked the first room-temperature BEC ever observed in the laboratory. While the authors didn't suggest any practical application, the potential for studying BECs directly is obvious. Without the need for cryogenic temperatures or the sorts of optical and magnetic traps that accompany atomic BECs, many aspects of Bose-Einstein condensation can potentially be probed far less expensively than before.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: canr; cmns; coldfusion; lenr; science
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-107 next last
Looks like Y.E. Kim's BEC theory for LENR just got a leg up. Criticisms of his theory were that BECs couldn't form at higher temperatures.

[PDF] Bose-Einstein Condensate Theory of Deuteron Fusion in Metal

http://www.physics.purdue.edu/people/faculty/yekim/YEKim-AIP-PNMBTG.pdf

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View by YE Kim - Cited by 14 - Related articles where ψBEC is the Bose-Einstein condensate ground state (a coherent quantum ..... Third International Conference on Cold Fusion., October 21-25 Nagoya ...

1 posted on 02/07/2013 12:43:37 PM PST by Kevmo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: dangerdoc; citizen; Liberty1970; Red Badger; Wonder Warthog; PA Engineer; glock rocks; free_life; ..

The Cold Fusion/LENR Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles


http://lenr-canr.org/


2 posted on 02/07/2013 12:45:36 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
For those threads when a pancake just won't do.

 

3 posted on 02/07/2013 12:46:53 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

This stuff interests me to no end. But I understand bupkis about the mechanics of it. I guess I will wait till it comes on the science channel so as to get the readers digest version.


4 posted on 02/07/2013 12:50:09 PM PST by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Responsibility2nd

Thanks for bumping the thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2965392/posts?page=19#19


5 posted on 02/07/2013 12:50:09 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Responsibility2nd

Is that a waffle that was morphed via Higgs Bosuns from a pancake?

Cold waffle fusion with pure Vermont quantum syrup. YUM!


6 posted on 02/07/2013 12:53:28 PM PST by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Vaquero

You might as well study the Nazi’s anti gravity flying saucers...or perhaps Charles Hapgood’s Hollow Earth Theory. All equally valid.


7 posted on 02/07/2013 12:57:53 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Responsibility2nd
For threads like this I prefer:
8 posted on 02/07/2013 1:00:33 PM PST by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

I may be looking right at it and missing it. Is there a link to the actual presentation of this paper? Utterly fascinating. Thanks for posting. The effect on super conductors alone will be astounding.


9 posted on 02/07/2013 1:00:33 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Vaquero
Is that a waffle that was morphed via Higgs Bosuns from a pancake? Cold waffle fusion with pure Vermont quantum syrup. YUM!

Waffles and syrup would be more likely to generate free energy.
10 posted on 02/07/2013 1:01:45 PM PST by ZX12R
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

The NAZIs did have a flying saucer program, not based upon antigravity but straightforward boundary layer control as laid down by Prandtl in the 1920’s. The allies won the war & got all their secrets.

Why would $multibillion companies like Mitsubishi, STMicro, Toyota, and National Instruments stick their necks out for something like the hollow earth theory?


11 posted on 02/07/2013 1:04:42 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: RIghtwardHo
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/29/1210842110 Polariton Bose–Einstein condensate at room temperature in an Al(Ga)N nanowire–dielectric microcavity with a spatial potential trap Ayan Dasa,1, Pallab Bhattacharyaa,1, Junseok Heoa, Animesh Banerjeea, and Wei Guob Author Affiliations Edited by Paul L. McEuen, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, and approved December 21, 2012 (received for review June 28, 2012) Abstract A spatial potential trap is formed in a 6.0-μm Al(Ga)N nanowire by varying the Al composition along its length during epitaxial growth. The polariton emission characteristics of a dielectric microcavity with the single nanowire embedded in-plane have been studied at room temperature. Excitation is provided at the Al(Ga)N end of the nanowire, and polariton emission is observed from the lowest bandgap GaN region within the potential trap. Comparison of the results with those measured in an identical microcavity with a uniform GaN nanowire and having an identical exciton–photon detuning suggests evaporative cooling of the polaritons as they are transported into the trap in the Al(Ga)N nanowire. Measurement of the spectral characteristics of the polariton emission, their momentum distribution, first-order spatial coherence, and time-resolved measurements of polariton cooling provides strong evidence of the formation of a near-equilibrium Bose–Einstein condensate in the GaN region of the nanowire at room temperature. In contrast, the condensate formed in the uniform GaN nanowire–dielectric microcavity without the spatial potential trap is only in self-equilibrium. Bose–Einstein condensation exciton–polariton Footnotes 1To whom correspondence may be addressed. E-mail: ayandas@umich.edu or pkb@umich.edu. Author contributions: A.D. and P.B. designed research; A.D. and J.H. performed research; J.H., A.B., and W.G. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; A.D. analyzed data; and P.B. wrote the paper. The authors declare no conflict of interest. This article is a PNAS Direct Submission. This article contains supporting information online at www.pnas.org/lookup/suppl/doi:10.1073/pnas.1210842110/-/DCSupplemental. Freely available online through the PNAS open access option.
12 posted on 02/07/2013 1:07:20 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
In fact this could be important for LENR,

Most likely, nothing scientifically legitimate has anything to do with LENR or cold fusion.

13 posted on 02/07/2013 1:11:03 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RIghtwardHo
hopefully better formatting

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/01/29/1210842110

Polariton Bose–Einstein condensate at room temperature in an Al(Ga)N nanowire–dielectric microcavity with a spatial potential trap

Ayan Dasa,1,
Pallab Bhattacharyaa,1,
Junseok Heoa,
Animesh Banerjeea, and
Wei Guob

Author Affiliations

Edited by Paul L. McEuen, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, and approved December 21, 2012 (received for review June 28, 2012)

Abstract

A spatial potential trap is formed in a 6.0-μm Al(Ga)N nanowire by varying the Al composition along its length during epitaxial growth. The polariton emission characteristics of a dielectric microcavity with the single nanowire embedded in-plane have been studied at room temperature. Excitation is provided at the Al(Ga)N end of the nanowire, and polariton emission is observed from the lowest bandgap GaN region within the potential trap. Comparison of the results with those measured in an identical microcavity with a uniform GaN nanowire and having an identical exciton–photon detuning suggests evaporative cooling of the polaritons as they are transported into the trap in the Al(Ga)N nanowire. Measurement of the spectral characteristics of the polariton emission, their momentum distribution, first-order spatial coherence, and time-resolved measurements of polariton cooling provides strong evidence of the formation of a near-equilibrium Bose–Einstein condensate in the GaN region of the nanowire at room temperature. In contrast, the condensate formed in the uniform GaN nanowire–dielectric microcavity without the spatial potential trap is only in self-equilibrium.

Bose–Einstein condensation
exciton–polariton
Footnotes
1To whom correspondence may be addressed.
E-mail: ayandas@umich.edu or pkb@umich.edu.



Author contributions: A.D. and P.B. designed research; A.D. and J.H. performed research; J.H., A.B., and W.G. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; A.D. analyzed data; and P.B. wrote the paper.

The authors declare no conflict of interest.

This article is a PNAS Direct Submission.

This article contains supporting information online at
http://www.pnas.org/lookup/suppl/doi:10.1073/pnas.1210842110/-/DCSupplemental.

Freely available online through the PNAS open access option.
14 posted on 02/07/2013 1:11:59 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62; ZX12R

Thanks for bumping the thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2965392/posts?page=19#19


15 posted on 02/07/2013 1:13:26 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View by YE Kim - Cited by 14 - Related articles where ψBEC is the Bose-Einstein condensate ground state (a coherent quantum ..... Third International Conference on Cold Fusion., October 21-25 Nagoya ...

That conference was held in 1992 back when cold fusion was like the real estate boom of the 2000's.

16 posted on 02/07/2013 1:15:27 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
Thanks for bumping the thread

Put me on your ping list so I can bump it sooner.

17 posted on 02/07/2013 1:17:00 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62

Again, no. Your stalking works. You bump these threads faster and more frequently than 90% of those on the LENR ping list. Not that what you say is worth reading, but at least you bump the thread.


18 posted on 02/07/2013 1:23:06 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Vaquero
It's actually very simple. Quantum systems involve "entanglement" of the wave functions of the particles involved. [Unlike Classical Physics, where the location of the particles alone specifies that they are distinct.] In quantum systems, if you have two particles, you never really have two distinct particles. You always have a system composed of two particles; there is no way to tell which one is which.

It's like having identical twins with absolutely no differences, and they themselves do not even know who is who(m). When you combine the wave functions of those two particles, they can be either symmetric or antisymmetric when the positions of the two particles trade places.

Particles that pair in systems that give rise to antisymmetric wave functions are called fermions. Particles that pair in systems that give rise to symmetric wave functions are called bosons.

Systems made up of very large numbers of fermions must essentially have one energy level for each particle in the system (this is not exactly true -- there is a complication but it doesn't change things much conceptually, so read on.) Systems made up of very large numbers of bosons do not need to have more than a single energy level for ALL of them (they usually do, but they don't HAVE TO.)

At all but VERY LOW temperatures, there are many energy levels available, so systems composed of many fermions at high temperature look just like systems composed of many bosons at high temperature. But, as the temperature falls, there is less and less energy available (that is actually nothing more than the microscopic definition of temperature.) This means there are fewer and fewer energy levels to occupy. For bosons, this is not a problem, because all of the bosons can occupy the same energy level if they have to. However, with fermions, each fermion must have its own energy level, so no matter how low the temperature goes, there are fermions "locked" into higher energy states.

Think of fermions like this: your kids are not grown up, and they get to bickering in the back seat when they touch each other (Dad! He's touching me!) You may have a van with three rows of seats that theoretically holds nine kids, but because of the Notouchy Effect (Pauli Exclusion Principle) the kids must each have their own row of seats, so your car can hold no more than three kids, if your kids are fermions.

On the other hand, the Brady Bunch kids are all perfect and love each other and are willing to sit in each others' laps if necessary. You can fit all six Brady kids all into the same row. Those are bosons.

Because systems with large numbers of fermions must fill large numbers of quantum levels, even at low temperature, they behave much differently than systems of bosons, all of which are willing to fit into the lowest available state.

[Now there is one very slight omission I promised to get back to: two fermions with the same "spin" quantum number are not actually in the same state even if they have the same energy. Quantum spin for fermions can have one of only two possible states. So in fact, each energy level for fermions can contain two, not just one particle(s). The idea is still the same.]

19 posted on 02/07/2013 1:24:07 PM PST by FredZarguna (Use it as you will. I Could NOT care less.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

I was referring specifically to the anti gravity “zero-point energy” based power systems. I figured you’ve probably seen videos online.(conspiracy theory explanations)

You seem like a smart guy, I don’t know why you waste your scientific inquisitiveness on cold fusion, LENR, and specifically Rossi.


20 posted on 02/07/2013 1:28:29 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Vaquero
The traditional Bosun's pipe:

The much higher tech version used by the Higg's Bosun:


21 posted on 02/07/2013 1:33:45 PM PST by FredZarguna (Use it as you will. I Could NOT care less.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna
Think of fermions like this: your kids are not grown up, and they get to bickering in the back seat when they touch each other (Dad! He's touching me!) You may have a van with three rows of seats that theoretically holds nine kids, but because of the Notouchy Effect (Pauli Exclusion Principle) the kids must each have their own row of seats, so your car can hold no more than three kids, if your kids are fermions. ***One of the experiments which produced the LENR anomalous excess heat effect was by KP Sinha by shining a laser onto the environment and thereby REMOVING energy from the system. Kind of like shining a light into the kids' faces and getting the deer-in-the-headlights response so they sit where you want them to sit. Tunneling Beneath the 4He Fragmentation Energy - Free Republic HTTP://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2743039/posts Posted on 07/01/2011 10:45:05 PM PDT by Kevmo ... A. Meulenberg and K.P. Sinha / Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear ... Furthermore, subsequent low-energy-nuclear-reaction (LENR) research has often ... laser stimulation [2] increases the resonant phonon-field amplitudes, the D− D+ ...... The Cold Fusion Ping List ...
22 posted on 02/07/2013 1:36:16 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: EEGator

Because LENR is scientifically established, but is still in its infancy as an engineering field. Think of what would happen to AC electricity if Tesla died earlier, the invention of the polyphase motor would have taken decades. There’s been more than 14,000 LENR replications. I haven’t spent much inquisitiveness on Rossi lately, most of my references to his work have been something that was included in whatever LENR article is posted, and we’re not supposed to just remove references in articles. I posted LENR articles before Rossi and I’ll be posting them after he leaves the scene.


23 posted on 02/07/2013 1:41:10 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna
Think of fermions like this: your kids are not grown up, and they get to bickering in the back seat when they touch each other (Dad! He's touching me!) You may have a van with three rows of seats that theoretically holds nine kids, but because of the Notouchy Effect (Pauli Exclusion Principle) the kids must each have their own row of seats, so your car can hold no more than three kids, if your kids are fermions.
***One of the experiments which produced the LENR anomalous excess heat effect was by KP Sinha by shining a laser onto the environment and thereby REMOVING energy from the system. Kind of like shining a light into the kids' faces and getting the deer-in-the-headlights response so they sit where you want them to sit.

Tunneling Beneath the 4He Fragmentation Energy - Free Republic

HTTP://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2743039/posts

Posted on 07/01/2011 10:45:05 PM PDT by Kevmo ...
A. Meulenberg and K.P. Sinha / Journal of Condensed Matter Nuclear ...
Furthermore, subsequent low-energy-nuclear-reaction (LENR) research has often ... laser stimulation [2] increases the resonant phonon-field amplitudes, the D− D+ ......

24 posted on 02/07/2013 1:44:00 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

Fair enough.

P.S. Just so you know, I’m a Tesla fanatic. Hopefully no hanging out with pigeons for me though.


25 posted on 02/07/2013 2:07:37 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

I thought it was going to be a moonshine thread, condensate.


26 posted on 02/07/2013 2:20:40 PM PST by showme_the_Glory (ILLEGAL: prohibited by law. ALIEN: Owing political allegiance to another country or government)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

Has your water heater arrived yet or is it still in the robotic factory that hasn’t been built yet?


27 posted on 02/07/2013 2:21:06 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ZX12R

I say we sink geothermal pipes down into the hot deep mantle for energy. This will power us for millennium untill the core solidifies and we lose our van Allen protection


28 posted on 02/07/2013 2:34:55 PM PST by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: EEGator
You might as well study the Nazi’s anti gravity flying saucers...or perhaps Charles Hapgood’s Hollow Earth Theory. All equally valid.

But...but the Kecksburg Incident!

The acorn shaped craft with nazi runes! God man! The Mothership!

29 posted on 02/07/2013 2:43:10 PM PST by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
It's not a good analogy, because the LENR theory you're talking about involves Bose condensates, not fermions. Lowering the temperature is equivalent to lasering off the back two rows of seats. The bosons are then forced to condense into the single seat. The fermions cannot be forced to condense.
30 posted on 02/07/2013 3:01:11 PM PST by FredZarguna (Use it as you will. I Could NOT care less.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: showme_the_Glory
I thought it was going to be a moonshine thread

Might be, depending on what you think of LENR.

31 posted on 02/07/2013 3:03:21 PM PST by FredZarguna (Use it as you will. I Could NOT care less.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62; Kevmo

http://www.greatenergychallengeblog.com/2013/01/23/alleged-mafia-ties-cast-new-shadow-on-italys-renewables/ ~ citing this one because it cites a number of other articles about the same problem. I recall not long ago that folks here were arguing that one of the more public LENR experimenters was lying about the Italian mafia trying to push him out of business. So now we find that Kim’s theory is not improbable since, in fact, Bose-Enstein condensate can be manufactured in ordinary environmental room temperatures. So, Moonman62, what’s your relationship to any of this? Is it the mafia, or MIT, or what?


32 posted on 02/07/2013 3:17:14 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
Because LENR is scientifically established, but is still in its infancy as an engineering field. Think of what would happen to AC electricity if Tesla died earlier, the invention of the polyphase motor would have taken decades. There’s been more than 14,000 LENR replications.

None of the results for those claimed 14k experiments were predictable, and they are not covered by any one theory that can make those predictions (For instance, a theory that can make a prediction of output based on input within a margin of error.). Therefore, LENR is not scientifically established.

Muon catalyzed cold fusion is scientifically established. One can use that for comparison.

33 posted on 02/07/2013 3:41:51 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Vaquero

This guy had his act together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna


34 posted on 02/07/2013 3:42:28 PM PST by EEGator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

I heard that the MIT bookstore was having a sale on Bose-Einstein Condensate traps.


35 posted on 02/07/2013 3:47:51 PM PST by Temujinshordes (Recommended mag size = bad guy's mag +1)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

Is that like Cro magnon or fillet magnon?


36 posted on 02/07/2013 4:19:47 PM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: count-your-change

My LENR water heater will arrive 200 years before any hot-fusion water heater will hit the market.


37 posted on 02/07/2013 5:54:45 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62

Never once has any lurker followed up your ridiculous anti-science Luddite objections and said they were worth pursuing.

Thanks for bumping the thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2965392/posts?page=19#19


38 posted on 02/07/2013 5:56:42 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna

Lowering the temperature is equivalent to lasering off the back two rows of seats.
***I don’t see it that way. Lowering the temperature and taking energy away from the system is like taking sugar away from the kids & giving them Ritalin so they’ll settle down. A BEC is like getting 9 kids in 9 seats, whereas you’ve been talking about getting 3 kids into 9 seats because none of them still want to touch each other.


39 posted on 02/07/2013 6:03:51 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
You're missing the point [and you're also wrong.] Bose condensation at low temperature happens because bosons can ALL occupy the ground state. Fermions cannot do that. It is impossible under any circumstances to get 9 fermions into three states. It is easily possible at low temperature to get 9 bosons (or Avogadro's Number of bosons) into ONE state.

What they are doing in this experiment is creating a metastable configuration in which they create a single ground state, even though the system is not at low temperature. The bosons will then condense into that state. There is no "forcing" required; because there is only one state created by the experiment's design, the bosons condense into that state. There is no other place for them to go.

If they were fermions, this experiment would fail.

If your kids are fermions, you can yell "I'm going to turn this car around!" all day, and they still will not get into one row of seats. They can't. They're not capable of it.

40 posted on 02/07/2013 6:27:10 PM PST by FredZarguna (These are the End Times for Dewey Crowe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah; Moonman62; Kevmo
Well there are at least two problems with the extrapolation that this has any consequences for LENR.

First, you claim that Bose-Enstein condensate can be manufactured in ordinary environmental room temperatures.

But what is described in the article is not "ordinary environmental room temperature." Room temperature, yes, but hardly ordinary environment.

Second, so what? No statistical physicist that I know would claim that creating boson condensates is theoretically impossible at any temperature, and I know a lot of them, including the former condensed matter theorist I see when I shave every morning. The question is whether the conditions under which LENR has been said to occur (in one theory) would in fact be an example of a single energy eigenstate under which BEC could form. This experiment does not by any means suggest that it does. It simply says that a thing that most condensed matter theorists already accept as possible in principle can indeed be done in a lab.

Does that have any applicability to the theory that LENR is made possible via a BEC mechanism? No, because nobody claims that under the circumstances of that theory this experiment has any applicability, EXCEPT for the fact that they both happen at more or less ordinary temperature.

That's not really a big deal.

41 posted on 02/07/2013 6:48:47 PM PST by FredZarguna (These are the End Times for Dewey Crowe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna

That’s so evasive.


42 posted on 02/07/2013 7:02:55 PM PST by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna

Does that have any applicability to the theory that LENR is made possible via a BEC mechanism? No, because nobody claims that under the circumstances of that theory this experiment has any applicability,
***Um, you’re the one who’s wrong this time. Y.E. Kim generated his BEC LENR theory and Sinha generated his experimental results (and theory) which show the applicability at room temperatures. So take it up with Y.E. Kim and KP Sinha, since you’re such a great physics guru. I know that guys like you try to tussle with pedestrians like me, but that’s just for show, because you’re intimidated by real physicists like KP Sinha and prefer to bully pedestrians rather than motorists. So... go ahead. Let us know how it goes.

Since you’ve put yourself into the rarefied atmosphere of people like Stephen Chu, Energy Director for the Obama administration (blech), who got his Nobel prize for removing energy from systems to create BEC’s with Lasers, take this issue up with him as well. I have no doubt that you’ll report your positive results back to us promptly. /s


43 posted on 02/07/2013 8:10:28 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

You’ve got nothing, so you call Fred a bully. And congratulations on getting your thread demoted to the Smoky Backroom.


44 posted on 02/07/2013 8:17:35 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Moonman62

Oh, you again.

Never once has any lurker followed up your ridiculous anti-science Luddite objections and said they were worth pursuing.

Thanks for bumping the thread

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2965392/posts?page=19#19


45 posted on 02/07/2013 8:27:14 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo
Wow. You managed to spew that many words without actually addressing a single point I made.

Let's demolish your stupid post one "point" at a time.

Y.E. Kim generated his BEC LENR theory and Sinha generated his experimental results (and theory) which show the applicability at room temperatures.

So what? People watch television in their living rooms at room temperature. Babies are born in hospitals at room temperature. So clearly watching television is where babies come from. See? Because they both occur at room temperature.

who got his Nobel prize for removing energy from systems to create BEC’s with Lasers, take this issue up with him as well.

Translation: "Oh, and I post on FRee Republic at room temperature! So, that proves there's something going on there, as well."

John F. Kennedy was murdered in Dallas on a November day that for physical purposes was at "room temperature."

What does that prove? Something to you apparently, but nothing to anyone who knows any physics.

But wait, Steven Chu used LASERS! So that must mean something, too. Because his LASERS created Bose condensates. So there has to be a connection. There does. Because Lasers are cool, and BEC is cool, and LENR is cool, so .. they're like ... related.

You're in way over your head here buddy. I've forgotten more physics in a day than you've learned in your life. This experiment proves that by using some very clever confinement techniques, Bose condensates can be created at room temperature. That has nothing more to do with LENR than anything else that happens at "room temperature."

46 posted on 02/07/2013 8:31:26 PM PST by FredZarguna (These are the End Times for Dewey Crowe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: muawiyah

There’s nothing evasive about it. Saying two things both happen at “room temperature” doesn’t prove they’re related, even if they claim to use the same mechanism.


47 posted on 02/07/2013 8:35:21 PM PST by FredZarguna (These are the End Times for Dewey Crowe!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna

So clearly watching television is where babies come from. See? Because they both occur at room temperature.
***Um, no. Correlation is not causation. But your straw argument is invalid and draws from classic fallacies. Are you a real physicist? Then why do you use straw argumentation, which a first year logician would drop whereas your claim to “real physicist” looking in the mirror implies many more years of educational training. How is that? You swallow the camel but strain at the gnat of straw argumentation? Did you flunk first year critical thinking?

So what? People watch television in their living rooms at room temperature. Babies are born in hospitals at room temperature. So clearly watching television is where babies come from. See? Because they both occur at room temperature.
***Again, straw argumentation. Did you flunk first year logic while moving ahead in super-duper physics logics?

Translation: “Oh, and I post on FRee Republic at room temperature! So, that proves there’s something going on there, as well.”
***Translation: flunking first year critical thinking courses while claiming to be a higher level physicist. How is that? I call bowlsheet. You’re a freeping liar. Note how you try to tussle with me, an admitted pedestrian, while you forego tussling with real physicists like KP Sinha because... yes I’m saying it... you’re a coward on top of being a hypocritical logician.


48 posted on 02/07/2013 8:40:58 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Kevmo

You’ll need all the bumps you can get now that you’re in the Bermuda Triangle of FR.


49 posted on 02/07/2013 8:41:25 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: FredZarguna

John F. Kennedy was murdered in Dallas on a November day that for physical purposes was at “room temperature.”

What does that prove? Something to you apparently, but nothing to anyone who knows any physics.

But wait, Steven Chu used LASERS! So that must mean something, too. Because his LASERS created Bose condensates. So there has to be a connection. There does. Because Lasers are cool, and BEC is cool, and LENR is cool, so .. they’re like ... related.
***And you’re like... not bringing any of this up with real physicists like KP Sinha because you’re like... a coward and a straw argumenter who seems to have flunked first year critical thinking while claiming to have gone onto hard level physics logic courses. Show us.

You’re in way over your head here buddy.
***I know that. That’s why you should be having this conversation with KP Sinha, YE Kim, Peter Hegelstein and others but choose to tussle with me.

I’ve forgotten more physics in a day than you’ve learned in your life.
***Prove it. Contact YE Kim. Contact KP Sinha. Contact Hegelstein. Tells us how that goes. You won’t because you’re an impostor.

This experiment proves that by using some very clever confinement techniques, Bose condensates can be created at room temperature. That has nothing more to do with LENR than anything else that happens at “room temperature.”
***And yet... real physicists who’ve been published in peer reviewed journals... beg to differ with you.... while you beg to differ with pedestrians.


50 posted on 02/07/2013 8:46:29 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-107 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Smoky Backroom
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson