Pete Rose: Johnny Bench would never have made it to Hall of Fame 'if I wasn't born'

Fox News ^ | June 6, 2019 | Ryan Gaydos

[treetopsandroofs]

“So do you blow out a pitcher’s shoulder because you don’t take him out when you should’ve because you want so bad to win THAT PARTICULAR game at all costs? As manager, you think of what’s best for the team, long term. If you have $20,000 riding on a particular game, your judgment can be clouded.”

Yep, that was my father’s argument, with which I still agree.

[dangus]

>> Pete Rose was one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, so he was on base a lot. <<

There’s the problem with your logic. Even in the years Bench was MVP, Rose had on-base percentages of .383 and .386... Not particularly good for a lead-off hitter with very few net stolen bases.

[CommerceComet]

He’s also one of the top 5 baseball players that ever lived.

Nonsense. During the Big Red Machine Years, Rose was typically the fifth best position player ON THAT TEAM behind Morgan, Bench, Perez, and Foster.

[Tallguy]

Imagine if Rod Carew had hit in front of Johnny Bench and George Foster? Carew was a selective hitter. Walked a lot. Hit closer to .400 than .300 many years.

[treetopsandroofs]

If Thurman Munson had lived longer....

Met him at a KFC in NJ in 1977, my younger brother’s biggest hero.

[morphing libertarian]

what is a NET stolen base?

[treetopsandroofs]

Some may need the /s.

[Dr. Sivana]

He averaged 56 RBIs and only 8 HRs!

He was a lead off batter. That will damage your RBI rating. He also had more than 30 doubles every year between 1972 and 1980. This was a different era when it wasn't all strikeouts and home runs. And yeah, I have seen singles hitters get pitched around. Rod Carew and Willie Randolph come to mind.

Personally, I think Rose and Bench are both overrated. I would also personally have both in the Hall of Fame, as I see the HoF as a reflection of accomplishments on the field.

[FatherofFive]

IIRC, Pete never bet on a game in which he played. So he could not have influenced the outcome.

Where is the crime?

[treetopsandroofs]

I suspect Total Attempts minus Caught Stealing.

[dfwgator]

He bet on games he managed.

[treetopsandroofs]

Ha, kind of like saying Net Total.

[riverdawg]

“If Thurman Munson had lived longer....”

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/page/mlbrank_top100catchers/ranking-top-10-catchers-ever

That’s likely why Munson didn’t make this top-ten list. I saw Bench play when he was a minor league player in my hometown in 1966.

[Mr. Lucky]

Bingo.

[frog in a pot]

As manager, you think of what’s best for the team, long term. If you have $20,000 riding on a particular game, your judgment can be clouded.

Exactly!

That should put to rest any argument about, "He only bet on his team to win."

If he damaged his team to win today, he just wouldn't bet on them again until they could win games again. Both a good racket and a good way to risk baseball careers.

[dangus]

>> He was a lead off batter. That will damage your RBI rating. <<

My point being that no-one in their right mind pitches around a singles hitter. Yes, the fact that he batted first, and after the pitcher, explains why he hit so many RBI. It also means there’s no reason to pitch around him: there’s no-one on base for him to drive in.

[jazusamo]

Rose admitted to gambling on games every night when he was manager.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=2798498

[Dr. Sivana]

Yes, the fact that he batted first, and after the pitcher, explains why he hit so many [few?] RBI. It also means there’s no reason to pitch around him: there’s no-one on base for him to drive in.

This was my original statement:

If Pete Rose played on the Braves or the Cubs of his era, he would not have gotten so many hits, as he would have been pitched around.

If Rose were on the Braves, he wouldn't have BEEN the lead-off batter. (The Cubs actually had some hitters, and not a lot of speed, so he might have been with them). He also wasn't just a singles hitter. He led the league in doubles half-a-dozen times.

[treetopsandroofs]

I heard that in my head in Paul Simon’s voice. :-)

[dangus]

>> what is a NET stolen base? <<

Net SB = SB - CS. Pete Rose LOST almost as many bases as he stole, from being picked off. Those 49 net stolen bases cost Rose’s team 149 outs! That’s like having a slugging percentage of .247! “Charlie Hustle”’s manager should have nailed his foot to first place!