Posted on 06/06/2019 11:38:11 AM PDT by jazusamo
“Do you understand how RBI works? You have to have someone on base to knock them in — this is out of the batter’s control. Pete Rose was one of the best hitters in the history of baseball, so he was on base a lot. This is a perfectly logical statement by Rose, though it is debatable whether Bench would still be in the HOF or not.”
So... what you’re saying is there was absolutely nobody else on the team that could have made a base hit? Is that what you’re saying? Because I do not believe that Rose was the only person on that team that could ever get a base hit.
“Oh, and one hell of a crappy haircut.”
Hm - my brother-in-law has the same haircut now that you mention it. And he LOVES Pete Rose!
Major League records:
Most career at-bats – 14,053
Most career plate appearances – 15,890
Most career hits – 4,256
Most career singles – 3,215
Most career times on base – 5,929
Most career outs – 10,328
Most career games played – 3,562
Most career winning games played – 1,972
Only player to play at least 500 games at five different positions – 1B (939), LF (671), 3B (634), 2B (628), RF (595)
Most career runs by a switch hitter – 2,165
Most career doubles by a switch hitter – 746
Most career walks by a switch hitter – 1,566
Most career total bases by a switch hitter – 5,752
Most seasons of 200 or more hits – 10 (shared)
Most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits – 23
Most consecutive seasons with 600 or more at-bats – 13 (1968–1980) (shared)
Most seasons with 600 at-bats – 17
Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
Most seasons with 100 or more games played – 23
National League records:
Most years played – 24
Most consecutive years played – 24
Most career runs – 2,165
Most career doubles – 746
Most career games with 5 or more hits – 10
Modern (post-1900) NL record for longest consecutive-game hitting streak NL – 44
Modern record for most hitting streaks of 20 or more consecutive games – 7
Rose retired in 1986 with the highest modern-day career fielding percentage for a right fielder at 99.14% and the highest National League modern-day career fielding percentage for a left fielder at 99.07%, behind only the American Legaue’s Joe Rudi and then active players Gary Roenicke and Brian Downing, who also primarily played in the American League.[67][68]
wiki
If you have a standing bet on every game that your team to win, which is all I have ever heard about Rose.. whether true or not who knows but that is all I have ever heard... then I could care less.
The fascination with OPS comes from a 1980s-era study which found it correlated better than SLG with runs produced... but they counted runs produced as runs plus runs batted in MINUS home runs. That was dumb. If they didn’t want to count one home run as two runs produced, they should’ve counted a run OR a run produced as a half of a run produced. If you do THAT, SLG is a better measure... even without considering stolen bases or walks into the SLG measure. What I was proposing (count walks as half an AB and half a TB) would factor walks into SLG, making it closer to OBP, and a more accurate measure of offensive production than OBP *or* SLG.
Even so, it’s just obscene that OPS ignores SB... and I would recommend factoring those in as half a total base, at least.
>> Nonetheless, he had more hits than any other player.... <<
THAT is ONLY because he hung on so long. Cut his career shorter by seven years, and his OBP or SLG is still pretty damned mediocre, especially considering he was essentially a National-League DH.
It's very debateable that Rose's assumption that with likely fewer RBIs would have kept Bench out of the Hall of Fame. But Rose views the world through Rose colored glasses so of course he sees it that way.
Nicely documented post.
I still do enjoy and relish while I can the occasional head-first slide — in softball. :-)
They won’t let us slide into home anymore though.
3 rings, not 2.
>> Pete’s transgression didn’t enhance his own stats or wins. <<
That’s just it: “The major problem with Rose betting on baseball, particularly the Reds, is that as manager he could control games, make decisions that could enhance his chances of winning his bets, thus jeopardizing the integrity of the game.”
So do you blow out a pitcher’s shoulder because you don’t take him out when you should’ve because you want so bad to win THAT PARTICULAR game at all costs? As manager, you think of what’s best for the team, long term. If you have $20,000 riding on a particular game, your judgment can be clouded.
I’ll bet most of us would have a hearty laugh if Mickey Rivers said the same thing about Reggie Jackson.
>> Most career at-bats – 14,053
>> Most career plate appearances – 15,890
>> Most career outs – 10,328
>> Most career games played – 3,562
>> Most career winning games played – 1,972
>> Most career losing games -— didn’t mention that one
>> Most seasons with 600 at-bats – 17
>> Most seasons with 150 or more games played – 17
>> Most seasons with 100 or more games played – 23
>> Most years played – 24
>> Most consecutive years played – 24
Most at bats, most at bats, most at bats, most at bats, most at bats by a switch hitter... blah blah blah blah.
>> Most career singles – 3,215
>> Most career outs – 10,328
You write as if those are GOOD things!
His per season stats:
.303 BA, 8 HRs, 56 RBIs, 8 SB but caught 6 times.
Those are NOT Hall-of-Fame numbers. Unless you have 16 gold gloves at shortstop. Do you know how many first basemen and designated hitters there are with better numbers who couldn’t even land a major-league contract?
He broke the one big rule, the sanctity of the game rule, the trust the results rule. The only rule with banned for life as the listed punishment. And it was posted over the phone he USED TO BREAK IT. He made his choice. He doesn’t belong in the hall.
I believe that Shoeless Joe might get in when Pete Rose does. It would be a feel-good moment for MLB to square up with the past and it would allow Cooperstown to side-step talking about Rose’s gambling a little bit. The evidence against Joe Jackson was always thin.
>> Basically Rose is saying that Bench had a lot of RBIs because Rose was always on base. That’s pretty much a true statement, Rose set records for hits and he batted ahead of Bench. <<
Rose had a thoroughly mediocre on-base percentage. Bench was actually LESS likely to drive in runs because Rose batted in front of him. THAT’S a statistical fact.
I agree and firmly believe Bench would be in the HOF no matter who batted in front of him.
“George Steinbrenner owned horse and bet on them, Rose bet
on hi own team to win, what is the difference?”
Dude, really? In every MLB locker room since the Black Sox Scandal there is a rule posted prominently. THOU SHALT NOT BET ON BASEBALL. It’s like a commandment.
Horse racing? Betting is integral to the sport. Always has been.
Apples and Oranges.
Sort of. His OBP is good for 217th all-time. Joe Morgan was much, much more likely to be on-base for Bench than their teammate Rose was. So Little Joe deserves more credit if that is important.
Agreed.
I agree with banning Rose from the HOF for gambling. It damaged the integrity of the game.
I also think Pete was correct to demolish Ray Fosse. It enhanced the integrity of the game.
“’and my comment stands.’
You disagree that Bench was the best catcher ever?”
https://bapple2286.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/hall-of-fame-debate-yogi-berra-vs-johnny-bench/
It’s pretty much a toss-up to me.
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