SOCOM Looks to Ditch 7.62 NATO For Better Long Range Performance

Bearing Arms ^ | 19 Apr, 2017 | Bob Owens

[MtnClimber]

SOCOM has seen the light, and is finally looking to drop the 7.62 NATO in favor of a lighter and better-performing rifle in a 6.5 short-action caliber. Special Operations Command is exploring a new caliber for its semi-automatic sniper rifle needs and upgrading one of its bolt-action sniper rifle systems.

Maj. Aron Hauquitz told Military Times Tuesday that SOCOM is in the preliminary stages of exploring a sniper rifle chambered in the 6.5 mm caliber. The two commercially available rounds being evaluated are the .260 Remington and the 6.5 mm Creedmoor.

Research shows that both rounds will “stay supersonic longer, have less wind drift and better terminal performance than 7.62 mm ammunition,” SOCOM officials said.......

Is anyone seeing signs of a clear trend here? The Army is already looking to bring back battle rifles and widely distribute them among the troops, at the same time they’re replacing their semi-automatic sniper rifles with a HK descendent of the AR-10 that isn’t really a sniper rifle.

[Manly Warrior]

Well, kinda sorta in a vague sense.

What really is going is the fact that one can find bullets in 6.5mm that have Bcs in the range of .7 G1,at about 147 grains ( Hornady ELd Match) and a cartridge ( a short action 308 based case) that pushes these bullets at decent velocities-2750 fps or so ( and the mil will jump them up a notch or two as well) compared to the 762/308 Win, you’d have to get near a 220-240 grain bullet and out of that small case, you can barely push such projectiles at much past 2000 fps... even the venerable 30/06 struggles to push such efficient bullets much past 2400 fps.

The realities of a smaller, more efficient round in terms of size, weight, materials needed (tangibles) as well as platform requirements ( the 30s would need barrels in the range of 26-32 inches, while the 6.5 can get there well within 26 inches, maybe a bit less) then you have rifle weight, blast recoil ( have you ever fired a wound up 30 cal with a 240 grain bullet?)

One would have to venture into the 300 Mag category to get similar external ballistics but would have a rifle that weighs about 13-15 lbs (M2010 Sniper Weapon system), has a round that weighs about 700 grains, or about 10 to a pound ( the 556 weighs about 190-200 grains) and generates a recoil impulse of nearly 30 ft/lbs ( granted, my 416 Rigby smacks me with about 58 ft/lbs).

So, there you have it- a stepping out 6.5 reaches out farther than any non-mag 30 cal, faster and with more terminal energy. Plus it is a dream to shoot.

The SOCOM folks learn well from the Precision shooting types- both Hi- power match as well as PRS/F-Class- learning how the great shooters get the edge they need to win against other world class marksman.

There is a reason the 6, 6.5 and 7mms rule the match, practical and tactical world, the 6.5 is the better choice in terms of performance and energy while minimizing the log load and the shooters comfort-ability to boot.

In fact, in the precision shooting world of paper and steel targets, the 30s are the exception, excepting the International Palma game ( 800-900-100-yards with a 308/762Nato spec chamber shooting 155 grain bullets). I assure you, the only reason shooters use that combination is because the Palma organization demands it.

A Palma rifle usually wears a 30-32 inch bbl to squeeze every last FPS out of stout charges of medium powder to get that 155 grn bullet to remain supersonic out to 1000yds....Rules is rules.

SOCOM can write their own, and I doubt the 762 nato is to be found in this chapter.

[Magnum44]

Very informative post. Thanks.

[Manly Warrior]

Regarding your argument-

a 30 cal 225 grn Hornady ELD M, .690 BC, MV 2950 retain 1244 fps (Sound is 1151 fps at STC) at 1760 yds with 774 ft/lbs of KE, from a 200 yd zero, it requires 56 MOS of elevation.

a 147 grin 6.5 mm Hornady EL .690 BC, MV 2950 retains 1244fps, and 505 ft/lbs....

So you get very similar performance with about half the materials cost per shot and ~60% of the energy of the big 30 mag.

I can find no data that shows a 30/225 grain from a 308 ( at SAAMI pressures, not lower NATO) that gets anywhere near 2400 fps..... so that would show 902 fps at 1760 yds, for 407 ft/lbs of energy and a drop of 96 MOA from a 200 yd zero. This round on paper would not approximate reality- by this point this bullet- even in a 1/8 twist 30 inch bbl would likely have fallen to the ground as yaw pushed the bullet over and it tumbled to the ground around the transonic range, about 1400 yds... The 175 or 190 308 is the epitome of the 308 winc/762 nato- it don’t get better any heavier.... and is really a 1000,maybe 1100 yd max effective range cartridge.

[familyop]

Why not the 6.5 Grendel?

[M1903A1]

Seems like the countries that actually employed 6.5mm rounds in combat—the Italians and Japanese—both sought to change to a 7+ mm round (7.35mm and 7.7mm respectively) soon after their hostilities began. Can anybody explain this?

[MtnClimber]

Thanks for the post. Very good information.

[familyop]

Oops...a bolt. A larger 6.5 would be a better choice after all then.

[Manly Warrior]

Good question.

The 6.5 Grendel is an AR 15 platform based round. It is loaded with medium light bullets ( 123s, to optimize its rather moderate powder capacity. It runs a comparatively inefficient bullet ( bc of about .520 per hornady manual) at rather mundane speeds ( again, due to the moderate powder capacity.

It is basically limited by its size on the small end of the spectrum.

Another concern to many smiths and shooters is that the chamber walls are rather skinny compared to what the industry considers acceptable- The case eats up a lot more of the Ar 15s barrel max diameter compared to the 6.8 case ( 30 rem) or the 55/223 case.

I doubt the SOCOM folks would look to barely match the 308 win with a 168 with a 6.5 with a 123....

The Grendel is a neat step in the development of the ideal AR 15 platform cartridge- which I personally think is the semi-custom 240 Tomahawk of Keystone Accuracy. It is a 6.8 SPC necked to 6mm and it runs 105 Hornadys ( bc of about 540) to 2850fp- as about a sweet shooting target rifle or light game rifle. The winning cartridge these days at camp perry across the course is an AR 15 based 6mm.... Easy to shoot, extremely accurate and precise.

[Stanwood_Dave]

"The simple fact is, when it comes to bullet mass, less is less and more is more, and you can’t do more with less. Sir Isaac wouldn’t allow it. Anybody tells you different is peddling snake oil."

Very well said. (I'm jealous, I didn't think of that.)

As a former handloader for the following caliber's 25/06, 30/06, and my favorite .35 Whelen. Why these; they all use the same brass. Either neck them up from 30/06 to 35 Whelen, or neck them down from 30/06 to 25/06. Kept cost down.:-)

...The trouble with the .308 is the smaller powder space is made even smaller with that weight bullet....”

Ah, not trying to be a smart a$$, but they do make different powder(s.) For those who may not know/ understand this statement, think as grinding (gun powder) to different "grit size." Actually the different grit size is partially because of the different formula to make either a "slow burning powder," or a "fast burning power." Most people try to use a powder that will take up as much space in the cartridge as possible. Think of this as a "general rule," not etched in concrete.

[TXnMA]

Thanks!!! This is a great, informative thread -- with just "a wee tad" of opining! '-)

I am truly enjoying sitting back, absorbing and sifting thru all the great data offered -- with no inclination (or ability) to join in...

FR is truly an enriching place to be!

[familyop]

Thank you for the info about the 6mm. I’ll have a look at more details.

I didn’t read slowly enough to notice that the article is about sniper rifles. Either the .260 or 6.5 Creedmore would be a good choice, if necessities other than ballistics would also work out well.

[MtnClimber]

I myself have a Springfield Armory M1A National Match Loaded 308. Probably my favorite gun to shoot. It is very heavy. You could lighten it up without recoil problems. I am not a fan of 5.56 for long range. A 6.5 is OK or a 30 cal or 338. I understand that there could be enemy sniper ID of our snipers by gun type. I am not sure that gun bags could not solve the gun ID problem.

[Celtic Conservative]

The Schmidt-Rubin and the later K-31 used the same style action, but the K-31was an updated design that had no parts commonality. I believe they took care of the headspacing and locking lugs issues on the K-31 as well.

CC

[rrrod]

My fingers are slightly overweight.....

[wardaddy]

WTH

Creedmore is 10 percent better BCE than the NATO 7.62 with similar grain

Ok

Remington 6mm flatter trajectory but one third less bulletin weight and ten percent less muzzle velocity

Remington 7mm and winchester .300 mag

Great kill and long range but heavy heavy

My favorite .300 weatherby mag even better....the best all around North American gun arguably but heavy ammo at .510 bce 200 grains

.270 130 grain...a contender at .487 bce

.25-06 can reach .460 bce in 115 grain

.280 Remington at 140 grain .490 bce

.30-06 has some 180-190 grain bullets kat over .500 bce....he’ll yes

Remington 30ll0 ultra short actionmag 190 grain .540 bce....I mean why stop now for flat mankillers

Remington 300 ultra mag 200 grain .550 bce

Winchester .300 mag 200 grains 500 plus bce

Lapua 338 mag 300 grains .768 bce....dayum

Win 338 mag 225 grain .648 bce.....lighter

Weight versus ballistics

Why not just load hot .308 hunting loads and change nothing

[wastoute]

Read about the first use of the term “politically correct...”

[wastoute]

You are being too rational. Ever since the King of Sweden decided that 6.5 had magical qualities it has been so...

Honestly. I have long wondered if there is not some “quantum level” effect in regard to the size of air molecules that gives the 6.5/.270 some poorly understood near mystical property. Maybe. Or maybe it is just a matter of balancing recoil and terminal ballistics...

[wastoute]

The gunsmith that made my custom Garrand made a wildcat cartridge that fired a 55 gr .223 from a 30-06 case at some 6,000 fps “for long range shooting”. Somehow I bet that would reach out just as well as a .50 BMG and be a little easier to shoot. Downside? He said he only got about 500 rounds per barrel.

[wastoute]

One of the few guns I have parted with in this life was a WWII relic I got for $25 for deer hunting in ‘68. A Jungle Carbine. The thing was barely shootable and my father was a sadist for buying it for a 14 year old boy. LOL.

For grins I fired it in a high power match once and was told by the guys on either side of me to “never bring that rifle back here”. The next morning my shoulder had a giant bruise on it. I was not sorry to see that rifle go. Maybe a full size SMLE would be better but I don’t regret letting the Jungle Carbine go one bit. In fact I feel sorry for the guy who bought it.

[Dusty Road]

After I got out of the Army in 72 I got interested in benchrest competition and my first rifle was a SAKO action, Shilen barreled 6.5x284. Used it for competition and had another stock Rem 700 re-chambered for the same round for hunting. Few years later I jumped on the Weatherby band wagon and never got off. Pretty much stayed with the 257 and the 300 until just recently when the 6.5x300 came out. This one will be strictly a hunting rifle. I went a head and got the die’s and some re-sizing die’s since I already have so much 300 brass. Haven’t decided which scope to put on it yet but I’m already looking at load data and have a hunch that can be improved on. I’m looking at two bullets both being Nosler Partitions in 125 and 140 grain. The rifle is a Rem 700 with a 26 inch Krieger contour in a 1-10 twist. Factory loads seem a little slow for this round and I’m hoping for something in the range of 150 fps improvement, reason I went to a little slower twist.