If Obama wins: Will Texas secede from the union?

BizPac Review ^ | Michael Dorstewitz

[cap10mike]

Could Texas once again become the Republic of Texas?

Without question, the Nov. 6 election will be a do-or-die, make-or-break, Rubicon-crossing event. If the presidential election goes one way, we get a “do-over.” We’ll be given the opportunity to take the first step on a long, arduous journey back to our political and economic roots. If it goes the other way, federalism and balance of power will continue to be edged out by an overreaching federal government and an imperial presidency. Socialism will have an unbreakable hold on the economy, and a centralized government, rather than a free market, will determine business’ winners and losers.

[Vaquero]

Just think about it. They would see you as the enemy to be kept out by the northern border of Texas. I don’t see it working out well for you.

possibly but I will take that chance...at my age it does not matter much...and I would rather fight govt. recognized police agencies like The New Black Panther Party than be subservient to them...

[Triple]

New York was re-admitted? (Patrick Henry guided NY ratification as well as VA.)

Please, from a legal matter the issue is far from settled. At the time of ratification of the Constitution the original intent clearly included the States right to withdraw, under certain conditions.

[central_va]

How many aircraft carriers does Texas have? Zero. How many modern fighters? How many modern guided artillery rounds? Zero.

You are aware that Texas has a huge aircraft manufacturing base?

[bigheadfred]

You are aware

What we have here, central, is someone who can't see past their reflection in the mirror but doesn't realize what they are looking at is the exact opposite of what they think they are.

[donmeaker]

Texas has a huge aircraft manufacturing base, owned by the Federal government.

[donmeaker]

I figure they would be likely to kick out the traitors.

[donmeaker]

http://www.airforcebase.net/usaf/afp_list.html

Note that all the military aircraft manufacturers use tooling paid for by the Federal government, owned by the federal government. Bombs are manufactured to the design owned by the federal government, on a plant owned by the federal government, using processes owned by the federal government. Diversion of those resources to any other usage besides that authorized by the owner would be a felony.

Even if the convicted felon didn’t give their consent to being incarcerated, they would be governed harshly.

[donmeaker]

You are not asserting that New York is going to secede, or perhaps you did and I just missed it.

Even if NY did once have a right to revoke its assent to the constitution, after 200+ years, it doesn’t any more. We are one people, as the Declaration of Independence said we were. Separation would have to be agreed by the entire people, by 3/4s of state legislatures for an amendment, or by treaty with assent from 2/3rds of the Senate, and the President. Of course, if you can get that kind of support, why not just change legislation to your desires?

[Triple]

Are you able to comprehend the tenth amendment?

Do you agree with original intent for Constitutional review?

It appears you don’t with the statement that rights just evaporate over time. BTW, in my book only liberals/progressives/socialists/totalitarians do not agree with constitutional review under original intent.

[BroJoeK]

Triple post #309: "Are you able to comprehend the tenth amendment?"

Triple post #302: "At the time of ratification of the Constitution the original intent clearly included the States right to withdraw, under certain conditions."

Triple post #289 quoting Virginia's ratification statement: "...the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression..."

First of all no majority of Texans will ever vote to secede, so you can all just fugetaboutit.
The only issue then is whether some minority singing Dixie at a bar has the constitutional "right" to declare their "secession"?
Answer: of course, it's guaranteed in the First Amendment that you can say whatever-the-heck silly nonsense you wish -- just so long as you don't break any laws in the process.

Indeed, there are today many groups which have, in effect, "seceded" from the United States, among which Old Order Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites come to mind.
But since they break no laws, nobody objects to them, and in fact they are highly welcomed in most communities.

Which brings us back to the issue of the original secessions, confederacy and civil war, to which I'll here post again my Ten Undeniable Truths:

Ten Undeniable Historical Truths of the US Civil War:

1. A Constitutional Right
   A "right of secession" is not listed in the US Constitution, but the Founders' Original Intent is clear and consistent -- secession is only authorized by mutual consent or from a material breech of contract.
   In Madison's words:
   
   "the compact being among individuals as imbodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself.
   The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect.
   It will hardly be contended that there is anything in the terms or nature of the compact, authorizing a party to dissolve it at pleasure."
   
   
2. 1860 Election
   Abraham Lincoln's election in 1860 was, in effect, engineered by Deep-South Fire-Eaters, who walked out of their Democrat Convention rather than accept the nomination of Senator Stephen Douglas for President.
   This turned the previous majority-Democrats, controlled by Southern slave-holders, into a regional party with no national appeal.
   It was an act of political suicide, which gave minority Republicans the majority of presidential electors.

3. Secession
   After the election in November 1860, Deep South slave-holders had neither "mutual consent" nor material breech-of-contract to justify declarations of secession.
   They therefore seceded "at pleasure" and wrote as their reasons concerns over a potential threat to slavery represented by the election of Abraham Lincoln.
   In the words of the South Carolina Declaration of Causes which Justify Secession:
   
   "A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery.
   He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that 'Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,' and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction."
   
   
4. Rebellion & Declaration of War
   Simultaneous to, and sometimes even preceding formal declarations, from December 1860 on, secessionists began committing innumerable acts of increasing violence, rebellion and insurrection against Federal property and personnel.
   These culminated in the military assault on Fort Sumter in April 1861, and the Confederacy's formal Declaration of War on the United States on May 6, 1881.
   " ...by the acts and means aforesaid, war exists between the Confederate States and the Government of the United States, and the states and territories thereof,..."
   
   
5. No Northern Aggression
   Before its official Declaration of War, no Confederate soldier had been killed by any Union force.
   That was due to directions from President Lincoln that war could not come unless the Confederacy started it:
   "In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, Is the momentous issue of civil war.
   The government will not assail you.
   You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors.
   You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to 'preserve, protect, and defend' it.
   I am loth to close.
   We are not enemies, but friends.
   We must not be enemies."
   
   

6. Confederate Aggression
   In its War of Aggression against the United States, the Confederacy not only seized every possible Federal property within its borders, but also sent forces into every Union state and territory on its borders, and some well beyond.
   These Confederate forces seized and destroyed property in every Union space they occupied.

7. Death Toll
   Total Civil War loss of lives was almost unimaginable -- over 600,000 in a population of 30 million.
   However, enumerated civilian deaths were relatively few, a handful, certainly as compared to the tens of millions killed, for example, during WWII.
   So, when challenged to produce actual reports of civilians murdered by Northern or Southern troops, the highest estimates instead come from demographic studies suggesting that life expectancy during hard times resulted in more elderly deaths and fewer children born than would have been otherwise.
   This is hardly comparable to mass murders in other wars.

8. Treason
   The charge of "treason" against Confederate leaders should be set aside.
   "Treason" is a legal term, a crime of which every accused should be presumed innocent until proved guilty.
   And since no Confederate leader was even tried, much less convicted of Treason, we legally have to say, they didn't commit it.
   Yes, of course we can well recognize the Constitution's plain language on treason: "waging war against the United States", but all charges were dropped after the war, for obvious political reasons, and there is no reason -- zero, zip, nada -- for us to reopen or attempt to "try" the case.

9. Courage and Genius
   There is just no denying that Confederate soldiers fought courageously under often inspired leadership, and turned what could have been an easy Northern victory into a long hard slog.
   They were nearly always outnumbered, outgunned and under-supplied.
   But they seldom lacked for courage or leadership, and that made up for lot.

10. Thank You, 'Johnny Reb'
    Even more to the point, we should never forget that same "rebel" courage and tactical genius has ever since provided the US military with much of its strongest backbone and brilliant leadership.
    For that the United States should say "thanks" to all the "Johnny Rebs" who died setting the example, and all those who lived on to father and grandfather much of our military today.
    We'd be far less without them, imho.

[Triple]

“Original Intent is clear and consistent — secession is only authorized by mutual consent or from a material breech of contract.
In Madison’s words:
“the compact being among individuals as imbodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself.
The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect.
It will hardly be contended that there is anything in the terms or nature of the compact, authorizing a party to dissolve it at pleasure.”” -BJK

That is my point -
The right of states to secede was clearly recognized (under certain conditions) in original intent at the time of the ratification of the Constitution.

[rockrr]

Yes, I do comprehend the Tenth Amendment. The lack of a specific enumerated “right” does not grant carte blanche “rights” - especially when the exercise of those rights has an immediate and profoundly negative effect on its neighbor states.

[Triple]

Congratulations! - with this thick-headed post you had made the short list of posters that are just ignored.

Have a nice life.

[rockrr]

I agree - your post was kinda thick-headed but I won't hold it against you.

Have a nice life.

Thank you!

[BroJoeK]

Triple: "The right of states to secede was clearly recognized (under certain conditions) in original intent at the time of the ratification of the Constitution."

Of course, just like any contract, it was well understood at the time that the Constitution could be dissolved by mutual consent or by some material breech.

And also of course, neither condition existed in November 1860 -- in the days immediately following Lincoln's election, when South Carolinians began their process to declare secession and simultaneously to commit acts of rebellion and insurrection against Federal officials and property.

That made their secession "at pleasure", which is not authorized under any law or constitution.
Indeed, enforcing contracts is one major purpose of the Constitution -- see Article I section 10, and Article 6.

These are essential, undeniable facts of 1860.
Today things are much different, but that is a different discussion.

[central_va]

After the election in November 1860, Deep South slave-holders had neither "mutual consent" nor material breech-of-contract to justify declarations of secession

The contract, the US Constitution, is breached, spat on an is now just a fig leaf for the statist. Consider it breached.

In 1860 we were divided as deeply as we are now.

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "The contract, the US Constitution, is breached, spat on an is now just a fig leaf for the statist. Consider it breached."

Right. I think most people who read or post on Free Republic consider our Constitution long since breached, but unlike you, I don't blame Ole Abe Lincoln for that.

I blame the Progressives of 100 years ago, lead by Republican Teddy Roosevelt and Democrat Woodrow Wilson, but also strongly supported by the Solid Democrat South.

Those people grew the Federal Government from about 2% of GDP under our Founders through Teddy Roosevelt, to 3% under Wilson, to 10% under FDR's pre-war New Deal, to about 20% under Lyndon Johnson's Great Society, to now 25% in Obama-land.

None of that had anything to do with the Constitutional Republic of limited Federal powers first contracted in the Constitution of 1787.

[Triple]

“Of course, just like any contract, it was well understood at the time that the Constitution could be dissolved by mutual consent or by some material breech.” - BJ

Got it - We agree on this point.

Have a nice day.

3

[bigheadfred]

In 1860 we were divided as deeply as we are now.

And it is still about slavery.

[OneWingedShark]

Note that all the military aircraft manufacturers use tooling paid for by the Federal government, owned by the federal government. Bombs are manufactured to the design owned by the federal government, on a plant owned by the federal government, using processes owned by the federal government. Diversion of those resources to any other usage besides that authorized by the owner would be a felony.

If Texas were to secede then such plants would not be under the federal government's jurisdiction.