Posted on 07/26/2002 6:28:10 AM PDT by radical4capitalism
I understand exactly what a libertarian is and have stated so. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Your form of libertarianism, wants the federal government to revert back to the size and scope that existed at the nations creation, say circa 1790. And I say, that minimal form of government is insufficient to run the complicated nation we call 21st century America. Some call that philosphy, "limited government". But that still doesn't change the facts. Many self-professed libertarians go way beyond the idea of limited government and support anarchism. There are some 250K members of the Libertarian Party. In the last election Harry Browne recieved roughly 390K votes from libertarians. Whether you like it or not, the libertarian philosophy and the politics of the Libertarian Party are intertwined more then you realize.
Ronald Reagan may have talked the talk of smaller government, but he had no success in reducing the size and scope of the federal government, outside of his extensive tax reform. So its clear you know precious little about Ronald Reagan. I told you in RE:#48, to read a book written by the man himself and don't listen to what his detractors and political enemies had to say about him.
Reagan's off the cuff remarks about the "missiles flying", was meant for a reason and actually had a purpose to it. Reagan was a tough conservative, but he was also a gentleman and didn't engage in gutter trash talk.
>>>Reagan ACTIVELY courted the libertarian vote, and got it, was appreciative of it, and said so. The republican party has a large and growing daily consortium of "dangerous types, the likes Schmedlap, Fiodor and Robinson... thanks largely to efforts of guys like you.
Reagan never actively courted the Libertarian vote, in any way, shape or form. You're making that up. In fact, in 1980 general election Ed Clark received the most votes ever recorded by a Libertarian candidate running for president. Like the neocon's, Libertarians and libertarians have little, if any influence on the Republican Party. And I never called Jim Ronbinson dangerous, you did. Stop putting words in my mouth. And while you're at it, grow up too.
"...if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is."-- Ronald Reagan
Was the great moralist conservative bible beleiving, truth telling, and best president of the USA in our lifetime lying when he said this... and you ignored the first part of what he said too:
"If you analyze it I believe "the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism.---Ronald Reagan
You see despite your perhaps ego-driven comments, I have read the thread repeatedly and have found, RM that you failed to adequately respond to FACTS uttered by that the truth-telling, straight-shooter, you CLAIM to honor. The REAL Ronald Reagan espoused these thoughts publicly and repeatedly. It is a matter of public record, not the narrow view of one, publishing company's editorial staff, in one book, that you may have read.
You think he meant something else when he warned "the missiles fly at midnight..."
Glad Gorby wasn't so stupid.
Were Reagan as duplicitous as you indicate, that wall in Berlin would still be standing.
That condescending attitude towards things that Reagan clearly said, in public position statements and the like, and during debates, demonstrates dishonor to the man, and what his heartfelt words have meant to the rest of us.
Perhaps you believe Reagan's credibility will somehow rub off on you by using his name on one hand, while denying his integrity in both word and deed on the other.
You cannot have it both ways.
You clearly don't speak for President Ronald Reagan... or most conservative republicans. Real republicans WANT smaller and less intrusive governance. Period... even in so-called "moral issues" like homosexual laws (see post 23).
You do get real points however for trying to twist his record on very limited government, to fit your socialistic and statist view of our American liberties.
You are NO Ronald Reagan sir. Especially, when you scream "revisionists" and deny the reality of verbatim quotes...
That group of seminar posters calling themselves Reagan Man is getting to be a real bore.
I've got to repeat everything for you. You don't pay attention. All you do is fabricate, distort and lie. I've never dishonored Ronald Reagan and never would. And I've not twisted anything when it comes to Ronald Reagan's legacy. You've never read one book written by Reagan. You are a liar, a fraud and a troublemaker.
In that Reason interview, Reagan said the following:
>>>"Now, I can't say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we don't each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves."
In that same interview, Reagan said the following, about the Libertarian Party.
>>>Well, third parties have been notoriously unsuccessful; they usually wind up dividing the very people that should be united. And then we elect the wrong kind-the side we're out to defeat wins.
Now, almost thirty years after that interview, the Libertarian Party and the libertarian philosophy is still attempting to divide political conservatives, instead of uniting them against the liberal socialism of the leftwing.
And finally, Reagan said the following:
>>>It is not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work -- work with us, not over us; stand by our side, not ride on our back. Government can and must provide opportunity, not smother it; foster productivity, not stifle it.
First Inaugural Address, January 20, 1981
One more time. Reagan was not a member of the Libertarian Party, nor did he support the Libertarian platform, or the libertarian philosophy. Reagan was a moral/law and order conservative. He championed conservative ideas and promoted the Republican Party.
If that is the case, why come over here to a thread that is just for us "no influence" types and spew all the venom?
To robert paulson from RM "You are a liar, a fraud and a troublemaker."
Is that how you intend to influence folks to see your viewpoint? So far you have verbally abused in horrendous fashion, virtually everyone here who supports the liberty forum that Jim has created for us... and that means I am a trouble maker?... right.
I think you should take Jim's advice and knock it off.. really.
Correct. Sometimes Reagan talked like a libertarian, but except for the initial tax cut in 1981, he raised taxes. When Bob Dole took over the Senate majority leader in 1985, as "tax collector for the welfare state", Bob Dole pushed for, and Reagan signed, the biggest tax increase in history in 1986. By Novemebr, the Republicans lost control of the Senate.
When Bush could get *NO* Demonrats in the Senate to agree that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were American interests in 1990, he signed the biggest tax increase in history in 1990. This led directly to x42's election in 1992.
When x42, with a Demonrat House and a Demonrat Senate passed the biggest tax increase in history in 1993, this set the stage for the Gingrich revolution in 1994. When Gingrich and the Republicans blinked in 1996, x42 was re-eleceted over the "tax collector for the welfare state", Bob Dole.
Running against a disgraced, inpeached, disbarred Administration, with all the charisma of Al Gore, and with Ralph Nader getting a lot of the Demonrat vote, George W. Bush barely eked out a victory in 2000 because the conservative bse still remembered his father rolling over for the votes of Al Gore and a few others in the Senate. But many of the againsters in 1990 still sit in the Senate, and we should name them at every opportunity.
For freedom,
Locke
First off, Ronald Reagan never talked like a libertarian and for good reason. Reagan wasn't a libertarian. Reagan was a moral conservative, a social conservative, a law and order conservative and a loyal Republican.
I have no idea where you came to the conclusion, that in 1986, Reagan signed the biggest tax increase ever. The 1986 Tax Reform Act, signed into law by President Reagan reduced marginal tax rates by creating a two tier system. It lowered the upper maximum rate of 50% to 28% and created a low end rate of 15%. It also scrapped many popular tax deductions, like credit card and individual consumer loans. That was the tradeoff aspects of lowering the marginal tax rates. The TRA of 1986 also increased the capital gains tax rate, from 20% to 28%. The 1990 and 1993 tax deals significantly reversed many of the reforms contained in the TRA of 1986, including raising the marginal tax rates.
Economist Stephen Moore said of the TRA of 1986:
"In 1986 Congress passed and President Reagan signed a landmark and heroic piece of legislation: the 1986 Tax Reform Act. The 1986 TRA closed economically inefficient tax loopholes and dramatically reduced income tax rates for all Americans."
Nuff said. But if you're interested, heres a link to a first class analysis of the Reagan Economic Record , according to economist Stephen Moore.
George W.Bush received 80%-85% of the conservative vote in the 2000 election. The 25 year old DUI/DWAI charges against Bush, that had been expunged from his record, but nevertheless was revealed to the public in the final week of the campaign, dramatically undercut the small 1%-2% lead GW Bush had in most polls at that time. This was viewed by many wishy-washy, fence sitting independents as a solid reason to vote for Algore. And that's just what they did.
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