On the Freedom of the Will: Part II: Section I (Refuting Arminian Free-Willism)

CCEL ^ | 1754 | Jonathan Edwards

[betty boop]

...they are following a false jesus and a false gospel, who is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible and historic Christian faith....

To answer your earlier question, Ephesians210: No, I am not LDS. (If I have to "label " myself, consider me RC.)

You seem to suggest that, by God's saying "by their fruits shall ye know them," by these words alone, God instantly endues human beings with powers of infallible discernment. Fat chance, kiddo.

I am not a student of LDS scripture and can't say I'm intimately familiar with its theology. But if we want to use that "by their fruits" criterion, WRT to LDS, here is what I personally observe: Strong, loving families and communities; law abiding citizens who love their country; and -- the piece de resistance -- strong, loving, beautiful children, who are raised to the standards of such virtues as personal responsibility, self-restraint, hard work, respect for parents and elders, prudence, temperance, generosity towards others.

On that basis, the tree looks to be pretty sound to me.

In fact, the fruits do tell you the soundness of the tree. Perhaps we can apply this maxim to non-LDS families as well, just judging by the children they produce.

Please forgive me, but I must decline further doctrinal dispute. I just don't see what purpose it serves at all.

God bless you and yours in all things!

[RnMomof7]

Most people at FreeRepublic have not been taught the whole counsel of God, and have developed "specialties" (Holes) in what they have studied. However, if they love the Lord and claim Jesus as their Savior, it becomes the mature Christian's responsibility to take them under their wing and instruct them in the whole counsel of God.

Amen. There are many Christians that think that it is just too complicated or too hard or out of the reach of the average person. Unfortunately many Pastors do not think their congregation needs it or can not understand it..so they feed Pablum on Sundays and do nothing to see there is any meat during the week. That leads people to think it is not important, that is why the resistance when you try to cut it up and feed it.

[xzins]

The kindness which can be ours in His Spirit shines through your post. Thank you.

[unspun]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

As we know, salvation as treated in the Word is about a relationship with God in Christ (i.e., whether that relationship exists or not on His terms, in His view, a thoroughly authoritative and sufficent yet general and limited depiction of His view for each of us being conveyed to us in His Scriptures, no part of which contradicts His actual, consistent view for each of us).

Here's what I'm thinking.

I believe we'll find many in Heaven who have grasped what is necessary of the saving doctrine of Christ, despite what they were taught in "church," in order to let the True Seed of Jesus the Word grow their utterly critical relationship with God. I suspect these will include people presently resting their feet in churches low and high, and in all valences between utter congruence and utter apostacy.

We judge all things yet we are judged by no one but Christ. That being the case, we judge no one, though we may need to determine how we must treat and even regard them by the fruit of their words and deeds.

Personally, I've felt compelled at one time, to step into a matter of testimony of a "prophet" behaving very falsely. (Frankly, this leader and group began to act much like 19th Century Mormons, in my view.) People involved had to make judgments about this. But even if there were a means to cast this person out of church fellowship, this would be as Paul said in 1 Cor. 5, in order to apply our hope for his salvation.

In fear and trembling,
Arlen

[Markofhumanfeet]

After all, everyone has a little spark of the divine in them.

[RnMomof7]

Betty , I do not mean to be rude, but there are alot of very nice atheists , and followers of witchcraft or Buddhists and so on .

There are many folks that will be thrown into the fire that neighbors thought were so wonderful.

That is because the fruit is only as good as the vine it is attached to.

The bible tells us what is not of faith is sin. That means that the "good" things men do is sin to God, unless it flows out of our salvation .So even a man running into a burning building to save a child is considered a sin if it does not come from our faith

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Hbr 11:6   But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The work of the saved has been designed and ordered by God. We are to be faithful to be diligent in whatever it is He has planned for us

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by good works we are saved by Grace .

Any fruit that comes from a tree that has shallow roots is of no value except the applause or recognition of men

God condemned those that believed in a plurality of Gods. I do not think He has changed His mind..but that is a part of the doctrine you are discussing. The roots of my tree is one God and Father ,three beings in one God..A God that is the God of all creation , The one and only God..that is a life giving vine

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

[bondserv]

Hello betty & AG,

A quick comment regarding fruit if it's not to forward of me.

We are yoked to the Creator of the universe, only so that we can be close enough to watch him do His beautiful work.

1. Cain - Crop by his labor (not fruit)
2. Abel - Lamb (fruit)
3. Ishmael - Abraham's and Sarah's solution(not fruit)
4. Isaac - God's solution(fruit)
5. Rightous Lot - drunk and seduced by his daughters - Ruth the Moabite (Line of Jesus)(fruit)
6. Jacob - prosperity of his goats over Laban's. (fruit)
7. Joseph - sold by brothers into slavery. (fruit)
8. Judah - "knows" widowed daughter-in-law Tamar. (Line of Jesus)(fruit)
9. Moses - neglects circumcising his son. Causes Moses' wife to honor God and circumcise her son. (fruit)
10. Esther - engages in pagan beauty pageant. Becomes queen that saves Jews. (fruit)
11. Rahab - Harlot (Line of Jesus) (fruit)
12. Gideon - Barney Fife of Bible characters (fruit)
13. Jonah - Reluctant, disgruntled prophet. Nineveh repents. (fruit)

It is all about God and nothing about us. One thing is consistent regarding fruit, the less we have to do with it the better, for then God rightly gets the glory. God provides the motivation and strength, we provide a willingness to respond.

It's not what we do, it's who we know. What Jesus has done and is doing through us. The "despite us" fruit is the real deal. The peace that surpasses understanding comes when we realize the pressure is off us. Study the Word of God so we will know who we are loving, and what He would have us do with that security.

Matt 5:3
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

[betty boop]

After all, everyone has a little spark of the divine in them.

In faith and trust in God, Markofhumanfeet, I do believe that is exactly the case.

I do believe God loves His "sparky" children, each and all. And "hopes" for the "return" of the Prodigal Son. (Sorry. Human language just doesn't do justice to expressions of divine Love....)

Thanks, Mark.

[betty boop]

I believe we'll find many in Heaven who have grasped what is necessary of the saving doctrine of Christ, despite what they were taught in "church," in order to let the True Seed of Jesus the Word grow their utterly critical relationship with God. I suspect these will include people presently resting their feet in churches low and high, and in all valences between utter congruence and utter apostacy. No man can say otherwise.

Dear Brother Arlen, we may be surprised to learn, reaching Heaven (if we ever do; I speak for me more than you here), that a whole lot of the saved aren't even Christians, "churched" or otherwise. God is the Father of all men and all creation. He may well find perfectly acceptable forms of worship that are outside our own tradition.

This doesn't mean that we ought to value our own tradition one jot or tittle less. It just recognizes the obvious: God has His Will in this world. And the Spirit bloweth where it wilt.

If we can recognize this, then maybe we humans can begin to understand the positive duty of love of neighbor -- for the love of God.

Truly you are right: "We judge all things yet we are judged by no one but Christ."

Which is why I say: Put your faith and trust in the Lord; be not troubled in mind, but do what you can to demonstrate your love for Him (love of neighbor is a divine sign). For all the rest, just leave it to Him.

For all the rest of it: Love life, seek the truth, and do what you can to help out with the chores....

[betty boop]

bondserv, what a lovely and thought-provoking post! Bookmarked for further study. BTW, I already tend to agree with your conclusion. :^)

[bondserv]

bondserv, what a lovely and thought-provoking post! Bookmarked for further study. BTW, I already tend to agree with your conclusion. :^)

Great, Thanks!

[Tribune7]

We judge all things yet we are judged by no one but Christ

We should believe that the Lord Jesus is Christ because the Lord Jesus is Christ -- not to have a happy afterlife.

There are those who follow Him without knowing what name to call Him and I wouldn't presume to judge them in the least.

[Tribune7]

Good post. Don't forget Noah who got off the Ark and went on a bender or Peter who denied Jesus or Thomas or doubted the Resurrection or Paul who persecuted. God makes us strong in our weakness.

[Alamo-Girl]

I’m sorry, lockeliberty. I made a general response to everyone and meant to ping you, and notice now that I did not.

I do thank you for the 2 Timothy 3 excerpts. The chapter is prophetic. The beginning reads like today’s newspaper:

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of [them] all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply, your testimony, sharing your calling and the Scriptures! In particular, thank you for appreciating that different people are called and gifted to serve in different ways.

I can't envision either John or Peter being able to do what Paul did to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles. Paul was gifted with the right personality, the right citizenship, the right education and right intellect for the mission Christ gave him.

And like Martha in Luke 10:38-42, after Jesus gave Peter his mission in John 21:15-20, Peter wanted to know what John was going to do (verse 21). But Jesus had something else in mind for John and told Peter not to be concerned about it:

Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. - John 21:21-22

The bottom line is that we all have been given gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12) so that together we form the body of Christ, each with our own mission.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you both so very much for your beautiful posts about the fruits of the Spirit!

All I can add is that the fruits are from Christ and are brought forth through us by the working of the indwelling Spirit. IOW, the fruit comes not by action but rather passively by submission:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. – Galatians 5:22-23

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragement, my brother in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insight and personal testimony!

I believe we'll find many in Heaven who have grasped what is necessary of the saving doctrine of Christ, despite what they were taught in "church," in order to let the True Seed of Jesus the Word grow their utterly critical relationship with God. I suspect these will include people presently resting their feet in churches low and high, and in all valences between utter congruence and utter apostacy.

I agree! He has mercy and compassion as He choses and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Abraham for instance had noone to counsel him. Likewise there are those who are incapable of hearing in one fashion or another.

[bondserv]

Good stuff. Thanks!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the encouragement! Hugs!