On the Freedom of the Will: Part II: Section I (Refuting Arminian Free-Willism)

CCEL ^ | 1754 | Jonathan Edwards

[xzins]

Free will preaching is so much more clear.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Pretty simple, huh?

As opposed to:

"Sit there and listen to this. If it suddenly dawns on you while I'm talking that God picked you to go to heaven and everyone else to go to hell, then you're one of the elect."

[A.J.Armitage]

I find it fascinating how all the Arminians whine and complain about how hard it is to read, and accuse him, Edwards, of lacking clarity of thought (when they haven't taken the trouble to learn what that thought is in the first place) except for sermons which they think sound Arminian. All it takes is a little discipline to apply yourself to the text, and they'd see that Edwards eviscerates libertarian free will.

[Corin Stormhands]

And then, when he attacks Arminianism, its like he's writing in tounges.

I heard that.

[Corin Stormhands]

Sorry A.J. we have been reading it. I'm sure it says what you want it to say.

[P-Marlowe]

I heard that.

Yes, but do you have the interpretation?

[Corin Stormhands]

Yes, but do you have the interpretation?

Well, no. And you know what that means...

[A.J.Armitage]

You've confused clarity of expression for clarity of thought. So I'll give you a link to a clear expression of Calvinism. God's Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men "Those who are in a state of salvation are to attribute it to sovereign grace alone, and to give all the praise to him, who maketh them to differ from others."

[A.J.Armitage]

You have? I guess between the time you asked for an English version and now you must've learned a foreign language.

[Corin Stormhands]

Have I done an exhaustive study? No. Do I plan to do one? No.

But I have attempted to understand, or to clarify in part what he is saying.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1075320/posts?page=25#25

So, if it's so clear to you, either enlighten us, or be quiet.

[P-Marlowe]

All it takes is a little discipline to apply yourself to the text, and they'd see that Edwards eviscerates libertarian free will.

OK Einstein. Why don't you explain, or translate, or paraphrase, or whatever, the first sentence of Mr. Edward's rant so that us stupid people can understand it.

Having taken notice of those things which may be necessary to be observed, concerning the meaning of the principal terms and phrases made use of in controversies concerning human liberty, and particularly observed what Liberty is according to the common language and general apprehension of mankind, and what it is as understood and maintained by Arminians; I proceed to consider the Arminian notion of the Freedom of the Will, and the supposed necessity of it in order to moral agency, or in order to any one's being capable of virtue or vice, and properly the subject of command or counsel, praise or blame, promises or threatenings, rewards or punishments; or whether that which has been described, as the thing meant by Liberty in common speech, be not sufficient, and the only Liberty, which make, or can make any one a moral agent, and so properly the subject of these things.

[connectthedots]

"The age of short sermons is the age of shallow piety." --Bishop Warren Akin Candler, UMC, Giants Against The Sky. My personal opinion of sermonettes. ;)

I think Gerald Marvel knew what he was doing. His younger son, Bob Marvel is the senior pastor at Cornwall Church of God in Bellingham, WA.

Check out the history of the church. What it doesn't say about Bob Marvel is that his first wife divorced him after two years of marriage when he was the youth pastor of this church because she did not want to be a preacher's wife. The church wouldn't let him resign his position. As you can see, God is faithful.

Will try to find the web sites associated with his other two children. Their preaching style is patterned after their father's, and they are all very much used of God in ministry.

They don't preach Calvinism, but many are being saved and growing spiritually.

[Corin Stormhands]

"Having taken notice of those things which may be necessary to be observed"

=

"We need to talk..."

okay, your turn.

[A.J.Armitage]

Okay, I'll see if I can walk you through it.

When the will causes something, that's an act of of volition. If you get up and walk into the kitchen, the will, by an act of volition, causes your legs to move a certain way. Got it so far?

[Corin Stormhands]

His younger son, Bob Marvel is the senior pastor at Cornwall Church of God in Bellingham, WA.

You make me pine for my youth. Our church left the Church of God in 1974. I was 15/16, not much I could do but go along. Haven't found my way back to the ChoG yet, but I loved their camp meetings.

[xzins]

Volition means will.

So, then, you're saying that the "will by an act of will" makes me go into the kitchen and get a few pecan sandies and a cup of coffee??

I'm with ya so far.

[Corin Stormhands]

go on

[Corin Stormhands]

My wife's will meant that I couldn't have any ice cream tonite (she finished it off).

[xzins]

From old prof Dr. Bill Arnett of Asbury Seminary ca. 1982 - he was quoting someone and he said:

I will my will to do God's will
and then my will is well
the willing will that does God's will
within God's will will dwell.

A freebie from a wonderful old Christian who I assume has passed to his reward.

[A.J.Armitage]

Mr. Edward's rant

Do you even know what the word "rant" means?

Having taken notice of those things which may be necessary to be observed, concerning the meaning of the principal terms and phrases made use of in controversies concerning human liberty, and particularly observed what Liberty is according to the common language and general apprehension of mankind, and what it is as understood and maintained by Arminians; I proceed to consider the Arminian notion of the Freedom of the Will, and the supposed necessity of it in order to moral agency, or in order to any one's being capable of virtue or vice, and properly the subject of command or counsel, praise or blame, promises or threatenings, rewards or punishments; or whether that which has been described, as the thing meant by Liberty in common speech, be not sufficient, and the only Liberty, which make, or can make any one a moral agent, and so properly the subject of these things.

The paraphrase: "I saw the important things to observe about the main terms and phrases used in the free will debate, especially what the ordinary usage of them is and what the Arminian usage is; then I considered the Arminian conception of free will and the supposed necessity of it for moral responsibility to exist, or whether the ordinary usage of "free will" is a better, or the only, justification for moral responsibility."

Now, I will explicate, as best I can, the main argument (which I must admit I never thought of before, but like all good arguments it's obvious once you know it), and the rest you can figure out yourselves. It builds character.

[CCWoody]

***So, if it's so clear to you, either enlighten us, or be quiet.***

Do you actually want enlightenment?

If so, then please begin by defining the will and the freedom it enjoys. I'll be happy to discuss it amid my preparation of the evening Bible study.

Woody.