Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

[Romulus]

There's nothing silly about taking art seriously. I'm sorry for those so stupid or aesthetically undiscerning that they can't see a message even as their nose is being rubbed in it.

[sinkspur]

And I'm sorry for those whose analysis of their silly analysis is even sillier.

[It's me]

This seems to be a suicidal religion.

Actually, it may just be part of a purification in the Church.

[It's me]

Will conservatism now sweep throughout the Church?

< I hope so. It's about time...

[mtbopfuyn]

Yes, I know you fashion yourself the theology expert of the Catholic faith but your holier than thou attitude doesn't fly with me especially after your dismissal of LDS baptisms. Your eyes may be wide open but your mind is closed. No, you don't have to get back to me.

[It's me]

Or banning clapping for a newly baptized baby or new confirmand, or when the Pope processes in at Mass? Ludicrous.

People clap when the Pope processes in at Mass!? What are they thnking? It isn't a show! It's Mass!

[It's me]

You will never meet a more conservative Catholic. (E.g, she can't stand any instrument but organ music in the church.)

Sheesh! That makes her a conservative Catholic!?

[It's me]

I reach that conclusion by knowing many women who were raised Catholic who are not raising their children Catholic.

They apparently do not know the Catholic Faith. That's so sad, really.

[It's me]

I was raised Catholic, but have not been to church in years. My children also went to a Catholic school back then, which I loved. But after the scandal in RI in the early 80's and nothing was done, I became quite wary of the church.

Ahh. Then you're a "Church Catholic" that is, one that believes and lives according to the "Church." You should become a "Christ Catholic" that is one that bases her faith on the teachings of Christ. AND, since Christ was the One who began the Catholic Church...

[It's me]

The Pope has no altar girls serving at any of his Masses. None.

[Conservababe]

I'm perfectly willing to consider the possibility that people may be moved to clap in Church as a direct movement of the Holy Ghost. But I don't think the Catholic clappers are amking that claim.

Catholics are not Holy Rollers nor do they talk in tongues.

[Cousin Eddie]

I was trying to be concise. If you read all of the rants by conservative Catholic freepers against guitars, flutes, drums, and other instruments in the church, then this would be one example of her conservatism.

[PoisedWoman]

This is a draft of a document that will never see the light of day.

thanks, sinkspur. I hope you are right.

[Cousin Eddie]

Comparing the authority of the management of the Birmingham Public Bus Company to the authority of the Holy See is a bit silly.

I never compared the authority of the management of the ... to the Holy See. I only pointed out that disobedience, at times, leads to change for the good. Stop trying to make bizarre leaps.

Essentially you're arguing that two thousand years of the Church's witness is "terrible" because it upsets the sensibilities of Gloria Steinem.

Whaaa?

When, I agree, is immaterial. What is important is how. And that how is through specifically orchestrated acts of disobedience by radical feminist apostates.

Women's suffrage came about through the efforts and disobedience of radical feminists. Does that mean we should go back in time and take away the right to vote from women? You argument is akin to saying the VW bug is bad because it was one of Hitler's brainchilds. In the case of the beetle, I'd rather have someone make the point that it's a bad car because it's unsafe in an accident rather than saying that the person who conceived it was evil. In the same vein, I would rather you explain why altar girls are a bad idea in 2003 rather than point out that the originators of the concept were 'radical feminist apostates'.

I already have. It is an ongoing manifestation of disobedience and it ruins the natural mechanism of fostering vocations.

It is not an ongoing manifestation of disobedience. It is allowed at the discretion of the bishop under certain circumstances. You have not shown any connection or proof of how it ruins the fostering of vocations.

the motive of an act is irrelevant and all that matters is its utility in a current situation, we are in the realm of situational ethics.

I did not say the motive is irrelevant, and don't make the illogical leap that anyone who supports girl altar servers today has the bad motives of the folks who originally came up with the idea (if indeed they truly had the motives you ascribe to them). I claim that people who support girl altar servers today are not necessaritly radical feminist apostates. My daughter will be an altar server. I have no interest in the priesthood being open to women. In fact, there is no one who would describe me as a feminist either in regards to church doctrine or societal norms in general.

What is actually incoherent is claiming to be a Catholic and then simultaneously claiming that obedience is irrelevant, tradition is unimportant and that only what makes people happy from moment to moment counts.

I never made any of these claims. What I said, if you took the time to read my many posts on the subject today, is that traditions and customs should adapt but only after careful and deliberate consideration...this clearly flies in the face of making people happy from moment to moment.

[Thorondir]

As for the Novus Ordo, as a good friend once said, "It's only fruits are fruits".

Ha ha! I love it! And you were very possibly talking to a fruit of that Nervous Disorder Mess. Good job, my friend.

Dominus tecum.

[sneakers]

"They don't have enough priests and they are working very hard to alienate their largest group of active members, women."

No, they are working very hard to get us, as a church, back to where we should be. I for one, have never liked the idea of altar girls. And, yes, I am a woman. There are many, many other opportunities in our church for women to serve.

[wideawake]

Catholics are not Holy Rollers nor do they talk in tongues.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the execrable "charismatic Catholic" movement.

You are very fortunate if this is the case.

[ArrogantBustard]

Perhaps had I written:

because the radical feminazi lesbians who have infiltrated many of the diocesan bureaucracies don't want new priests

I would have been more clear. And you would have seen no contradiction, where there is in fact none. The much ballyhooed "priest shortage" is not evenly distributed, nor is it random. It is nonexistant in the most orthodox and Traditional dioceses, and most severe in the most heterodox and trend-following dioceses. Some months ago, the New Oxford Review published an article quantifying this phenomenon. You might find it on their website.

[ArrogantBustard]

Just to set the record straight:

Bustard on my behind who obviously thought I shouldn't voice an opinion and hit the cry button.

I did not, nor do I ever, hit "abuse". As always, I prefer that putrid and irrelevant remarks be left up as mute testimony against the people who make them. I don't run this site, though, so my preference doesn't set policy.

[nina0113]

Catholics are not Holy Rollers nor do they talk in tongues.

You haven't seen the Charismatics, have you? They're as much Rollers as the ones I saw in church back when I was Southern Baptist.