The Litmus Test for American Conservatism (The paloeconservative view of Abe Lincoln.)

Chronicles Magazine ^ | January 2001 | Donald W. Livingston

[WhiskeyPapa]

It was intended for 'perpetual union' so expressed in the preamble

Unfortunately Lee was referring to the Articles, not the Constitution.

You know that's not true. Why on earth would the Articles matter in 1861? And Lee refers to the "safeguards" put in by the framers. Why would you tell a lie like that?

Walt

[4CJ]

I doubt seriously whether his negotiations during the interregnum were genuine attempts to keep the South in the Union, because he knew he could do ever so much more politically with the South out of the Union and out of the Congress, and that his policy was always a war policy, whose implementation began immediately on his taking office, as shown by the documents turfed up by nolu chan and rustbucket on the other thread.

BINGO! Congress could have been assembled in days not months if the Lincoln had actually desired to wrap his actions in the veil of legality. Lincoln waited until the Congress, having REFUSED to use force against the seceded states, adjourned, and then proceeded with his plans - refusing to meet with the peace commisioners, lying to former Supreme Court Justice Campbell et al about Ft. Sumter.

[lentulusgracchus]

Troll alert PING.........

The history-washing machine is on spin cycle again....

[lentulusgracchus]

Lincoln waited until the Congress, having REFUSED to use force against the seceded states, adjourned, and then proceeded with his plans - refusing to meet with the peace commisioners, lying to former Supreme Court Justice Campbell et al about Ft. Sumter.

Yes, as we put this puzzle together, it's starting to look worse and worse for the Big Guy........do you suppose that all that white marble over all these years has actually covered up that much intriguing and Constitution-flouting? Or have other historians seen it, and simply turned away because the implications for what we're all taught to believe about America would have been too deadly?

[lentulusgracchus]

Unfortunately Lee was referring to the Articles, not the Constitution.

Yes. We've had this conversation with your interlocutor before. Lee, at his secretary, simply got it wrong.

Next someone will be quoting the Preamble again to "prove" that the Constitution amalgamated the States.

[lentulusgracchus]

From what I understand, when Lincoln first got to D.C. he worked under Senator Clay and that is where Abe got most of his pro-federal government, pro-tax and spend views.

Oh, I thought you were referring to Cassius Clay, a Lincoln contemporary, while you were referring to the Great Compromiser. Yes, Lincoln imbibed a lot of Clay's ideas and ideals. The Whigs' platform of national development was indeed the precursor of tax-and-spend.

[Paul C. Jesup]

Could you help me, what was Senator Clay's first name? So we don't have this confusion again.

[lentulusgracchus]

Henry Clay of Kentucky.

[4CJ]

You know that's not true. Why on earth would the Articles matter in 1861? And Lee refers to the "safeguards" put in by the framers. Why would you tell a lie like that?

Because it's the truth! Lee wrote (which I cited back to you), '[i]t was intended for 'perpetual union' so expressed in the preamble.'

The Constitution does NOT contain the word "perpetual", or any other word indicating permanence. The Articles of Confederation & Perpetual Union does:

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

One of those safeguards - the 10th Amendment, derived from Article II of the Articles which stated, '[e]ach state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.'

To say anything else is Soviet style disinformation.

[lentulusgracchus]

Next someone will be quoting the Preamble again to "prove" that the Constitution amalgamated the States.

Too late! Dammit......

[billbears]

In order for your actions to be justified, does the armed invader have to kill your family before you can defend them? Just wondering.

Well of course. It's the 'responsibility' for living under such a wonderful Empire in that we should allow armed invaders full access to kill, maim, and destroy property at whim. Only afterwards may we question our oppressive government and then only how they want us to run our government in occupied lands. And if they're real nice they'll only keep troops in our lands for 10-15 years.

And for the record, I'm talking about the Confederacy (although it may seem strangely familiar given current events)

[stainlessbanner]

You mean the history books all have it wrong and the federal troops manning Ft. Sumter actually opened fire on the city of Charleston first?

Please do read the SC Governor's address to his assembly and the correspondence between legistlature correspondence between the SC commissioners and the POTUS.

[4CJ]

Well of course. It's the 'responsibility' for living under such a wonderful Empire in that we should allow armed invaders full access to kill, maim, and destroy property at whim.

I'm sure the neocons are so thankful ;o)

[ought-six]

Looks like I'm a paleocon, as well. Thank God!

[WhiskeyPapa]

The Constitution does NOT contain the word "perpetual...

Lee's letter refers to the Constitution by name.

Walt

[stainlessbanner]

Great post. Thanks for clearing up the "misinformation"

[AlexW]

It is amazing to see the civil war always being reenacted
here on Freerepublic.
I usually stay out of the fight, but I am going to jump in here to defend my heritage as a southern born man.

For you perverted Yankees, I have a question.
Where would your sorry rear ends be if it were not for the southern states? Can you say president Albore?

Really, the country would have gone down the tubes, long before Gore, given the great representatives that you now have....the fat drunk senator from MA, the Marxist junior senator of NY. The various other assorted Marxist, queers, and union mobsters that run your sorry part of what use to be a great country.

Yes, you have given us so much insight...The New York Times, CBS, NBC, The NewYorker...Wow, how could the
Communist have made it so far without you Yankees?

I ask the Yankee freepers, who, if not the south, will save your sorry rears in the next election?
What would a young Lincoln be today? Probably an offspring of witch Hitlary.

[philosofy123]

I rather call myself a Nixonian Republican.

[stainlessbanner]

Thank you for jumping in - you DO have a dog in this fight.

The irony of conservative "south bashers" is that they do their cause no good. There are folks who seek to profit from creating rifts in the conservative voting base.

The South is the last conservative stronghold, the bible-belters, and patriots included. Why these conservatives seek to tarnish the proud history of the South is beyond me.

[Non-Sequitur]

The South is the last conservative stronghold, the bible-belters, and patriots included.

Check your history again, Stainless. The great plains states were voting Republican while y'all were drooling over Jimmy Carter. Your conservative credentials are recent by comparison.