Jewish and Christian leaders launch countermissionary campaign [Fighting "Jews for Jesus" people]

Jerusalem Post ^ | Aug. 27, 2003

[Buggman]

Oookay. If you're going to dismiss something as "silly," rather than simply say, "My opinion differs," you ought to back it up.

Of course, the fault may be mine. It's not easy to try to summarize many years and many more volumes of study on the subject in a handful of readible paragraphs. My post was not intended to be an all-encompassing summary of the subject, just enough to show that the counter-argument exists, that it is sustainable, and to stir those who might wish to do so to do their own homework. If you're not one of those, then we'll part amicably on this note.

Even if your one-liners are rather silly. ;^)

[cookcounty]

"Is the coming Messiah truly a main tennant of Judaism or merely a side belief?"

I know nothing of tennants, but it could be a tenet> :-)

[truthandlife]

Satan is definitely cranking up the offensive these days.

[A.J.Armitage]

I love that.

[A. Pole]

The last few times we actively proslytized, we were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. (and not just by muslims...)

Really? One example comes to my mind was the forced conversion of Idumeans (Edomites) and others under the Maccabean rule (IIc BC).

[rdb3]

Question for you. Why is it that a Jew (I'm speaking in the ethnic sense) who becomes a Christian is no longer a Jew, but a Jew who is an atheist remains one?

[Nachum]

I'm no longer "black" since I now reside outside of their parameters.

In their world, that might indeed be true!

[Nachum]

Well then, why can't they be Jews in the nationalistic sense?

They are renouncing their country when they become an apostate in the eyes of the law.

[Nachum]

So the question for the confused author would be: If one cannot be a Jew unless he is a religious Jew, how then can one be an apostate Jew?

The author does not claim that Jewishness resides in ones adherence to all of Jewish law. It does say that an apostate Jew can no longer claim to be a Jew.

What is incoherent is the attept to state the opposite of what is obviously true in the two statements you cited.

The article is full of finger-pointing nonsense. JFJ must be fairly effective to incite all this panic.

The article indeed points fingers. However, Jews for Judaism, because of the millions of dollars the Baptist Church has pumped into this organization has indeed got the attention of the Jewish world. You might call it "effective", others would call it destructive.

[A.J.Armitage]

Do atheist Jews renounce their country?

Was Ayn Rand Jewish?

[Nachum]

It is a matter of Jewish Law. A Jew that makes a public declaration to attach himslef to another G-d is considered an apostate. It falls into the category of "idol worship". Idol worship is considered an extremely grave sin. While denial of G-d is considered a sin, it is not the additional step of attachment to another.

[rdb3]

It is a matter of Jewish Law. A Jew that makes a public declaration to attach himslef to another G-d is considered an apostate.

Okay, fine. But I'm not speaking in the religious sense. I'm talking specifically about ethnicity. How does becoming a Christian change that?

[Nachum]

Do atheist Jews renounce their country?

In Israel, no. There are no organized atheists who make claims on the holy land (that I know of).

Was Ayn Rand Jewish?

I beleive she was. I used to listen to an associate of hers by the name of Leonard Piekoff (fogive my spelling if wrong). He was as athiestistic as they come, but remarkably pro Israel. This would represent a number of Jews in Israel.

[cookcounty]

Definitely, they are closer to the Protestants for lots of reasons, especially the radical Protestants that stem from the Anabaptists and Baptists. Most of the evangelical protestants reject the traditional christian "replacement theology." (In a nutshell---The Jews were God's chosen people until they screwed up, then God rejected them and the "Church" became God's chosen people ). In the radical view, Israel and the Jews continue to be the chosen people, i.e. chosen to be a special instrument of God's self-revelation and blessing in the world. Since most of the historic anti-Semitism in christianity grows out of this vying for the "chosen people" mantle, Jews smitten with Jesus would probably tend to gravitate in the direction of those who see the presence of Jews as a blessing rather than those who have often seen their presence as a reproach.

Also, there is a definite distaste for use of images in protestant worship, which Jews would relate to more, a greater emphasis on the Hebrew scriptures, a rejection of most non-jewish "tradition" and a fascination with the (Jewish) world of the 1st century.

[adam_az]

The Mikva is for ritual purification of women after menstruation.

Men do not go to the Mikva.

I don't have the time or interest to cover the rest for you.

Totally different concept than baptism, other than both involving water.

Unquestioning devotion to your faith rather than rational inquiry coupled with limited knowlege blind you from being able to think rationally.

Funny that you ignored the picture of the dionysus/bacchus crucifiction image...

Google and a skeptical mind are your friend.

At least, they are mine.

[cookcounty]

""By the way, how about the Jews starting some missionary work of their own? "

"The last few times we actively proslytized, we were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands. (and not just by muslims...)"

It has it's challenges for sure. You had great success among the Berbers in North Africa, though. Without them, the state of Israel would not have had the critical mass to get off the ground. And you did better in North Africa than we did. That dhimmi stuff is crushing! (here's a good book proposal for you: why did the jews survive the muslim conquest of North Africa and not the christians?)

[Nachum]

Okay, fine. But I'm not speaking in the religious sense. I'm talking specifically about ethnicity. How does becoming a Christian change that?

One is not merely a Jew by merit of their birth, but also by a minimal standard of behavior. This standard even applies among secular Jews. When a Jew becomes a Christian, it is a very personal attack on Jewish identity. One cannot be both, as much as some Christians try to sell the idea.

[cookcounty]

"Really? One example comes to my mind was the forced conversion of Idumeans (Edomites) and others under the Maccabean rule (IIc BC)."

I hope we're not keeping scores that far back of who's been nasty. Us christians would be in a real hurt!

[SkyPilot]

Christianity is not a branch of Judaism

For that statement alone....she should be shamed and ridiculed as an ass.