Free trade's victims turning against Bush, GOP

The Herald Sun ^ | August 25, 2003 | associated press

[TaxRelief]

Another Deanie.

Nakita's ground troop list is growing.

[GOP_1900AD]

I would imagine that most of what is in the proposal could in fact be enacted simply via an order from the President. Please specifically indicate how said amendments would prevent investigations regarding treason and espionage? Some such investigations are already occuring on a small scale. As for the proscribed list of embargoed nations, a number of them are already embargoed, this would simply add to the list.

[GOP_1900AD]

Some of us are actually trying to move Bush to the Right. Does this disturb you? Personally, I would love to see the 1964 GOP planks in 2004. You got a problem with that?

[Poohbah]

I would imagine that most of what is in the proposal could in fact be enacted simply via an order from the President.

"Stroke of the pen, law of the land?"

My, my, my.

You seem to be an admirer of the Clintons--or, at least, their methods of governance.

Please specifically indicate how said amendments would prevent investigations regarding treason and espionage?

Ever hear of the concept of "probable cause?" (Rhetorical question, as you've obviously not heard of it.) Fourth Amendment issue right there--you do not show probable cause for each investigation, merely a blanket claim of guilt.

Fifth Amendment: due process of law. Taking of private property for public use. (Hey, guess what? When you're doing government security investigations of private enterprises that are not directly engaged in government contracts...you're asserting that the GOVERNMENT actually owns those enterprises.)

Sixth Amendment: you've just ensured that NOBODY is going to get a speedy trial in this country, even if they aren't invesitgated under this act. Also, your whole premise is that everyone is guilty until they are proven innocent.

Eighth: Excessive fines or bail.

Your proposal has far less to do with the concepts of ordered liberty than it does with the Marxist-Leninist concepts of "purging class enemies" and "show trials."

Some such investigations are already occuring on a small scale.

Based on those reactionary principles of probable cause, due process of law, et cetera--the ones that keep you from instituting your concept of purging your class enemies and building the New Soviet (Business)Man in your image.

Your idea, at its core, is related to the concept enforced by His Majesty's soldiers--the one holding that every white fir in the Crown Colony of Maine belonged to His Majesty, and that a settler who committed the heinously evil act of cutting down a white fir on his property had in fact, committed treason against the Crown.

[4.1O dana super trac pak]

BTTT

[4.1O dana super trac pak]

Yup, freepers its there, Indians maintaining automated calling robots.

Oye.

[null and void]

We're doomed

[ncweaver]

Free trade is great for keeping the market competitive and prices down, BUT, everyone knows it does NOT work with communist countries. Duh! Guess we can just keep hoping Congress may one day use some common sense when making our laws. Our founding fathers were very well read, intelligent men AND in general used common sense when passing laws.

[scottlang]

Some of us are actually trying to move Bush to the Right. Does this disturb you? Personally, I would love to see the 1964 GOP planks in 2004. You got a problem with that?

I don't. I support is whole heartity. And if Bush won't then let's find someone who will.

[Imagine]

I do like where you're going with this list....

[harpseal]

Well I try to focus on economic and trade issues with the ping list. If you are referring to the economic remedy plan than plese send it to every politician you know it will get them off their butts hopefully

[Imagine]

I will download and format your list in a nice looking document. You list on economic recovery/trade is similar to my 18 Point Border Violator list. I'm trying to light a fire too. If you don't mind, I'll send you some suggested improvements on your list via private mails.
Regards

[harpseal]

Please do.

[harpseal]

I will be working on essays supporting each particular point. That is a more detailed description of each with supporting documentation for how each will ocntribute to improving the investment envirornment within the USA and thereby improving the employment picture within the USA.

My list is not comprehensive in the sense that I fukky realize it is only a start. As to your action item list on border violators I will referr to that I am certain in those essays and amplifications. In the interim I am very hesitant to include much of an expansion in breadth of issues becuas eby presenting a limited list it is more likely to attract some attention and possible implementation but I alwsays welcome suggestions for improvement and incorporate them if I and some otehr people do agree.

I note my original listt was amplified and expanded with rdb3 and at this point I require his approval nbefore any substantial additions are made. The item on stern of this list I am endorsing is an example of this.

[waterstraat]

Well, he still has one supporter:

"But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade." ~ Karl Marx, On the Question of Free Trade, January 9, 1848 http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm#marx

[GOP_1900AD]

Poohbah: Let me get this straight. Firstly, with your ad hominem attack trying to paint me as a Clinton fan, you imply that the President does not have the authority to manage his AG and his DCI? Secondly, you believe there is no probable cause that US firms have done business inappropriate and in cases engaged in treason with our enemies and hostile anti Western countries, witness Hughes, Loral, Sun Microsystems, SGI, many others... Thirdly, you believe that asking companies to be more stringent regarding hiring H1Bs / L1s / Resident Aliens who are Citizens of Communist and other anti Western nations is "taking of private property" as is regulating how such firms can operate in those same hostile nations. Fourthly you equate tough laws with issues that have nothing to do with the laws themselves but rather, our increasingly permissive and criminal protecting (promoting?) legal system corrupted as it is by the Communist ACLU. Fifthly, you believe that creating punishments that would actually impact the behavior of firms and individuals who have tremendous financial resources and who would never respond to slap-on-the-wrist punishments is "excessive." Then you go on to equate the restoration of order over the anarchy that has resulted as anti American globalist firms who simply happen to headquarter here out of convenience with Marxism? I just simply wanted to document your beliefs for all here to see.

[Poohbah]

Poohbah: Let me get this straight.

I sincerely doubt that you will, but I'm willing to let you try.

Firstly, with your ad hominem attack trying to paint me as a Clinton fan, you imply that the President does not have the authority to manage his AG and his DCI?

He may do so...within the confines of the Constitution of the United States, which is still the supreme law of the land, efforts by you and your ilk to the contrary notwithstanding.

Clinton and his cronies tried to do the very thing you advocate--they just have slightly different targets.

Secondly, you believe there is no probable cause that US firms have done business inappropriate and in cases engaged in treason with our enemies and hostile anti Western countries, witness Hughes, Loral, Sun Microsystems, SGI, many others...

Ahem. You need probable cause for EACH INDIVIDUAL INVESTIGATION. (Mind-blowing concept, isn't it?)

Timothy McVeigh blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City in 1995. He rented a Ryder truck. He also purchased fertilizer.

By your logic, there is now probable cause for an investigation of every person who rents a truck, or purchases fertilizer. After all, they're all probable domestic terrorists.

That isn't any sort of "probable cause," however.

Thirdly, you believe that asking companies to be more stringent regarding hiring H1Bs / L1s / Resident Aliens who are Citizens of Communist and other anti Western nations is "taking of private property" as is regulating how such firms can operate in those same hostile nations.

Your proposal goes far beyond that. Perhaps you're just functionally illiterate.

I am stating that your proposal to mandate a security investigation of every employee (citizen or alien) of every company in America amounts to the government determining who I may hire and fire--essentially, the government replaces the business owner and is in the position of determining how to dispose of the company's payroll.

At that point, the government is acting as the owner. It's a taking--unless you're of the school that holds that ALL property rightly belongs to the state, and that the state then deigns to allow us use of said property, whereupon we must be appropriately grateful and bootlicking to the agents of the state.

Fourthly you equate tough laws with issues that have nothing to do with the laws themselves but rather, our increasingly permissive and criminal protecting (promoting?) legal system corrupted as it is by the Communist ACLU.

Wrong. I have no problem with tough laws.

Tough laws that violate specific clauses of the US Constitution--I have a problem with those.

"Toughness" is not the sole criterion of a law's effectiveness. A law that mandates the death penalty for smoking in a public park is "tough." It is also manifestly unconstitutional.

Fifthly, you believe that creating punishments that would actually impact the behavior of firms and individuals who have tremendous financial resources and who would never respond to slap-on-the-wrist punishments is "excessive."

Go and read the Eighth Amendment. Go and read the case law on the Eighth Amendment.

Your fine is arbitrary, and extremely high. It will not withstand judicial review--under ANY standard that the nation has employed since its founding. You may not like this fact. Tango Sierra.

Then you go on to equate the restoration of order over the anarchy that has resulted as anti American globalist firms who simply happen to headquarter here out of convenience with Marxism?

The Marxists always like to talk about "restoring order" over the "anarchy" of the free market. belmont_mark argues the Marxist line; the logical conclusion is that belmont_mark is, in fact, a Marxist.

I just simply wanted to document your beliefs for all here to see.

I'm presuming that you're not a complete moron (a dangerous presumption, to be true).

Given that presumption, the only thing I can conclude is that you simply despise the notion of freedom, because your proposal has shown nothing but contempt for the Bill of Rights. It's something far more worthy of Hillary Clinton and Janet Reno than it is of Free Republic.

[GOP_1900AD]

Staying down in the ad hominem nether regions... nice work!

[GOP_1900AD]

And, I might add, in your usual distorting manner, you failed to address the real points. You never really want to address anyone's post in its entirety, you pick and choose things out of context, a snippet here or there. I note that most of your anarchist buddies have a similar style. Is your mission one of discrediting the far Right? I ask that point blank.

[Poohbah]

belmont_mark whining about ad hominem attacks.

That's like being called a pervert by Bill Clinton, or being called ugly by Helen Thomas...

It's utterly devoid of meaning, even if it was factual.