Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido
"Apr. 10. To Benjamin F. Butler, Hay for Lincoln, making appointment for ``tomorrow,''"
LOL, I bet he still denies it, GOP. He'll probably post something about how 'The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln' is -not- a -valid- source on Lincoln.
Exactly. It'll probably be an excerpt from Jim Epperson on the holy bible of wlatdom - the "moderated civil war newsgroup"
False. It is a memo from John Hay, Lincoln's personal secretary, scheduling an appointment between Lincoln and Butler.
No........ the quote -often- provided indicates Butler is to report to a congressional committee. This is another quote -often- referred to, and what it certainly DOESN'T show is that there is a record of the president and Butler meeting in this time frame.
Walt
Nice of you to find the evidence to support Butler though. In any case, Butler, as an acting major general, was in an extremely important and valuable position, and his accounts cite several meetings on the topic. There is no reason they would not have seen each other at any time, appointments or not.
I have directed Walt's attention to that page in the Collected Works of Lincoln no less than a dozen times dating back over several months. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that he is unaware of its existence and safe to conclude that he is perpetrating a willful falsehood. For that reason I call him nothing other than what he is - a liar.
Yet the Hay memo DOES show them meeting in the time frame. Thus for you to claim that no evidence exists of them meeting is to perpetrate a willful falsehood.
Once again Walt that is a falsehood and you are a liar. The meeting between Butler and Lincoln was scheduled in writing by Lincoln's secretary John Hay.
Well, that's a mighty puny "Aha!" Where's the report of the meeting -after- it took place? Where can we see such a document say, written between 1865 and 1891?
You say they were scheduled to meet. There is no record by a third party that they ever -did- meet.
This is surely the most ridiculous exercise in pedantic nonsense ever indulged in.
You can't prove the President and Butler ever even met in this time frame. Butler's single statement 25 years later simply does not meet the criteria needed to add it to a viable historical interpretation.
Walt
It's good to see you confess, as you must certainly be describing your own posts.
In Butler's book.
Where can we see such a document say, written between 1865 and 1891?
If there is such a document I suspect it could be found somewhere in Butler's papers at the Library of Congress - perhaps a diary entry or something. It wouldn't appear anywhere else because the only other person who could have attested to its contents never had the chance because he died 4 days later.
You say they were scheduled to meet. There is no record by a third party that they ever -did- meet.
...and no reason whatsoever to believe that they did not meet. The evidence that they did meet is strong:
First, you have a memo from Lincoln's secretary to Butler saying the equivalent of "the president is gonna meet with you tommorrow so show up at this time." Second you have an account by Butler effectively stating "when I met with Lincoln this is what we talked about..."
That alone is more than sufficient evidence of a meeting to any reasonable person, but since you are not such a person let's suppose more were needed. Now, surely you will admit that a scheduled meeting with the president is a pretty big thing, especially if he takes the time to have his secretary write it down into the record for the day. Now if the meeting never happened despite having been scheduled don't you think Lincoln would have directed Hay to send Butler another memo stating something like "Hey, I know we were supposed to meet for lunch today but something's come up and we're gonna have to do it another time"? Yet no such memo was ever written and no indication exists that the meeting was ever cancelled. It is therefore a safe assumption that it did indeed take place as scheduled.
This is surely the most ridiculous exercise in pedantic nonsense ever indulged in.
My sentiments exactly. So why do you indulge in it?
You can't prove the President and Butler ever even met in this time frame.
Sure I can and in fact I just did. I have documented the meeting on Lincoln's schedule. I have documented Butler stating that he was at the meeting. And I have made note of the fact that no memo cancelling the meeting or otherwise rescheduling it exists. It is therefore a safe conclusion, and one that is also beyond any reasonable doubt, that Butler and Lincoln did indeed meet on April 11, 1865.
Now, as for the contents of that meeting, we have only Butler's testimony. Is it valid? That's a matter of another debate. But the fact that they met to talk about something or another is settled beyond a reasonable doubt by way of documentation in Lincoln's own schedule.
Then he is just yanking your chain to make you soil your pants. Done it good too. LOL
Not Walt. That isn't the way he operates around here. He posts out of blind adoration and near worship of Abraham Lincoln. Persons and facts who get in his way are simply inconveniences to him, which he intentionally ignores, excuses away, and overlooks. It has made an habitual liar out of him and I do not shy away from calling him that when it is applicable.
That is a many times documented large rotund inadvertant statement. Below is a copy of an official letter of Attorney General Bates replying to Lincoln's question concerning Lincoln's authority to retain the Revd Mr Mitchell as Lincoln's assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or Colonizing of the freed blacks.
In 1864, Lincoln was still talking about Colonizing.
Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center,
Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.
From Edward Bates to Abraham Lincoln, November 30, 1864
Washington, Nov 30 1864.
Honored Sir,
I beg your pardon for having overlooked, in the pressure of business, in my latter days in the office, the duty to give formal answer to your question concerning your power still to retain the Revd Mr Mitchell1 as your assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or Colonizing of the freed blacks.
[Note 1 Lincoln had appointed the Reverend James Mitchell of Indiana the agent for emigration in 1862. For more on this case, see Mitchell to Lincoln, October 20, 1864.]
It is too late for me now to give a formal opinion upon the question, as this is my last day in office. I can only say that, having examined all the acts referred to, I am satisfied that, notwithstanding the act which repeals the appropriation contingently, you still have something to do, under those acts; and therefore, that you have the same right to continue Mr Mitchell that you had to appoint him originally. And I hope it will be done, for he seems to be a good man, of zeal & capacity.
Most respectfully Sir
Your obt servt
Edwd. Bates
[nc: Underline and internal note as in Library of Congress transcript.]
Here is yet another meeting from an earlier timeframe, just to add additional context to the meeting to 1865.
Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, p. 577-9
In the spring of 1863, I had another conversation with President Lincoln upon the subject of the employment of negroes. The question was, whether all the negro troops then enlisted and organized should be collected together and made a part of the Army of the Potomac and thus reinforce it.
* * *
We then talked of a favourite project he had of getting rid of the negroes by colonization, and he asked me what I thought of it. I told him that it was simply impossible; that the negroes would not go away, for they loved their homes as much as the rest of us, and all efforts at colonization would not make a substantial impression upon the number of negroes in the country.
Reverting to the subject of arming the negroes, I said to him that it might be possible to start with a sufficient army of white troops, and, avoiding a march which might deplete their ranks by death and sickness, to take in ships and land them somewhere on the Southern coast. These troops could then come up through the Confederacy, gathering up negroes, who could be armed at first with arms that they could handle, so as to defend themselves and aid the rest of the army in case of rebel charges upon it. In this way we could establish ourselves down there with an army that would be a terror to the whole South.
He asked me what I would arm them with. I told him John Brown had intended, if he got loose in the mountains of Virginia, to arm his negroes with spears and revolvers; and there was a great deal in that. Negroes would know how to use those arms, and the southern troops would not know how to meet their use of them, and they could be easily transported in large numbers and would require no great expense or trouble in supplying ammunition.
"That is a new idea, General," said he.
"No, Mr. President," I answered, "it is a very old one. The fathers of these negroes, and some of the negroes themselves, fought their battles in Agrica with no other weapon, save a club. Although we have substituted the bayonet for the spear, yet as long as the soldier can shoot he is not inclined to use the bayonet. In fact, bayonets are of no use, they are only for show. But probably the time has not come for dropping them."
Arrowhead>>>------slavery in all it's forms----->Freedom
Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, pp. 903-8
A conversation was held between us after the negotiations had failed at Hampton Roads, and in the course of the conversation he said to me: --
"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves.
"You have been a stanch friend of the race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water, -- your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have no use for our very large navy; what, then are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away?
"If these black soldiers of ours go back to the South I am afraid that they will be but little better off with their masters than they were before, and yet they will be free men. I fear a race war, and it will be at least a guerilla war because we have taught these men how to fight. All the arms of the South are now in the hands of their troops, and when we capture them we of course will take their arms. There are plenty of men in the North who will furnish the negroes with arms if there is any oppression of them by their late masters.
"I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported. I wish also you would give me any views that you have as to how to deal with the negro troops after the war. Some people think that we shall have trouble with our white troops after they are disbanded, but I don't anticipate anything of that sort, for all the intelligent men among them were good citizens or they would not have been good soldiers. But the question of the colored troops troubles me exceedingly. I wish you would to this as soon as you can, because I am to go down to City Point shortly and may meet negotiators for peace there, and I may want to talk this matter over with General Grant if he isn't too busy."
I said: "I will go over this matter with all diligence and tell you my conclusions as soon as I can."
The second day after that, I called early in the morning and said: "Mr. President, I have gone very carefully over my calculations as to the power of the country to export the negroes of the South, and I assure you that using all your naval vessels and all the merchant marine fit to cross the seas with safety, it will be impossible for you to transport them to the nearest place that can be found fit for them, -- and that is the Island of San Domingo, -- half as fast as negro children will be born here."
"I am afraid you are right, General," was his answer; "but have you thought what we shall do with the negro soldiers?"
I said: "I have formulated a scheme wihich I will suggest to you, Mr. President. We have now enlisted one hundred and fifty thousand negro troops, more or less, infantry, cavalry, and artillery. They were enlisted for three years or for the war. We did not commence enlisting them in any numbers until the latter part of 1863 and in 1864. I assume that they have a year at least on an average to serve, and some of them two to three years. We have arms, equipment, clothing, and military material and everything necessary for three hundred thousand troops for five years. Until the war is declared ended by official proclamation, which cannot be done for some very considerable time, they can be ordered to serve wherever the commander-in-chief may direct.
"Now I have had some experience in digging canals. The reason why my canal, which was well dug, did not succed you know, My experience during the war has shown me that the army organization is one of the very best for digging. Indeed, many of the troops have spent a large portion of their time in digging in forts and intrenchments, and especially the negroes, for they were always put into the worl when possible. The United States wants a ship canal across the Isthmus of Darien at some proper and convenient point. Now, I know of a concession made by the United States of Colombia of a strip thirty miles wide across the Isthmus for that purpose. I have the confidence of the negroes. If you will put me in command of them, I will take them down there and dig the canal. It will cost the United States nothing but their pay, the clothing that they wear will be otherwise eaten by moths, the arms are of no worth, as we have so many of them in excess; the wagons and equipments will otherwise rust out. I should set one third of them to digging. I should set another third to building the proper buildings for shelter and the rest to planting the ground and raising food. They will hardly need supplies from the government beyond the first season, having vegetable supplies which they will raise and which will be best for their health. After we get ourselves established we will petitition Congress under your recommendation to send down to us our wives and children. You need not send down anybody to guard us, because if fifty thousand well-equipped men cannot take care of ourselves against anyody who would attack us in that neighborhood, we are not fit to go there. We shall thus form a colony there which will protect the canal and the interests of the United States against the world, and at least we shall protect the country from the guerilla warfare of the negro troops until the danger from it is over."
He reflected a while, having given the matter his serious attention, and then spoke up, using his favorite phrase: "There is meat in that, General Butler; there is meat in that. But how will it affect our foreign relations? I want you to go and talk it over with Mr. Seward and get his objections, if he has any, and see how you can answer them. There is no special hurry about that, however. I will think it over, but nothing had better be said upon it which will get outside."
"Well, then, Mr. President," I said, "I will take time to elaborate my proposition carefully in writing before I rpesent it to Mr. Seward."
I bowed and retired, and that was the last interview I have had with Abraham Lincoln.
[1863]
"Nov. 5. To James Mitchell, Nicolay for Lincoln, granting interview for this date, DLC-Nicolay Papers." CW:APP2:525
This was a meeting with members of the African Civilization Society.
What were they discussing Wlat? Mass migration to Massachusetts?
[LINK]
Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress. Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center, Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.
From James Mitchell to Abraham Lincoln1, November 5, 1863
[Note 1 Mitchell, an Indiana minister, was appointed the commissioner for emigration in 1862.]
[Marginal note: Colinization]
Washington Nov 5th/63
The Officers of "The African Civilization Society", are in attendance and respectfully ask a short interview -- they are
G W Levere, President
H M Wilson, Sect
R H Cain,2 Director
[Note 2 Richard H. Cain was a minister of the African Methodist Episcopal church at Brooklyn, New York. Following the Civil War, Cain moved to South Carolina where he was active in missionary work and politics. He served in the state legislature and was elected to two terms in Congress (1873-75, 1877-79). In 1880 Cain was ordained a bishop.]
P S Porter, ... "
Wm Anderson, ... "
I have the honor to
remain your servant
James Mitchell.
Comm. of E[migration]
[Endorsement:]
Appointed to see them at 4 ocl P M3
[Note 3 The officers of the African Civilization Society presented Lincoln with a petition requesting $5,000 to aid the work of the society. See African Civilization Society to Abraham Lincoln, November 5, 1863.]
Now that you mention Jim Epperson and the ACW moderated heehaw, remember this?
[Wlat] There is no reasonable interpretation that will say anything but that there is no legal right to unilateral state secession. The judicial power of the United States rests with the Supreme Court. --Every-- Justice agreed in 1863 that the Militia Act gave the power to the president to suprress rebellion. The majority opinion in that case referred to the rebels as traitors. These are the facts of the matter. If you -had- anything of note to say, which you apparently do not, it would be muted by your unsupportable position on this one issue.
This is from Dorr v. Rhode Island:
[long quote]
[nc] Dear Lurkers:
Don't waste your time looking for famous decision Dorr v. Rhode Island, decided unanimously by the Supreme Court in 1863.
[Wlat quoting from the ACW moderated heehaw it seems.]
My error.
"The Supreme Court decision in question is Luther v. Borden, from 1849, resolving a dispute that started in 1841.
* * *
By a vote of 8-1, with Chief Justice Roger Taney writing the majority decision, the Court ruled that Congress alone had the authority to do this, that it was a "political question," and therefore not something for the Court to decide.
* * *
Jim Epperson
Let's see.
Walt wrote authoritatively about a court decision he had not even seen, much less read and understood, but he definitely knew the case citation and that it was unanimous.
He had read about a decision over on his unimpeachable ACW moderated heehaw.
There was no such case as Dorr v. Rhode Island.
There was only one Supreme Court decision in 1863 and that wasn't it.
It was not from 1863, it was from 1849.
- Every - justice agreed: * 8-1 * with CJ Taney writing for the majority.
It was Luther v. Borden, not Dorr v. Rhode Island.
Had Walt so much as looked at the actual decision, he would have seen that it was Luther v. Borden (1849). It was impossible to see a caption of Dorr v. Rhode Island.
He seems to have made no statements at all on colonization in the last two years of his life. He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem, and he often said that blacks should have their full liberty, and he worked hard on the passage of the 13th and 14th amendments, and he worked to get black soldiers the vote.
Walt
He does a lot of that, hoping lurkers won't check into it for themselves.
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