Jittery U.S. Soldiers Kill 6 Iraqis

Yahoo ^ | Aug 10th 2003 | SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI

[dwd1]

With Al-qaeda, I will stick to my position that we need to cut off the money and they are done for...


As long as they are funded, we will never be rid of them...

[dwd1]

Thank you...

[Redcloak]

"It was a dark and stormy night..."

[dwd1]

Not assessing blame but I think some work could be done on both sides.... At Ramstein, GE they started putting up these barriers at the gates that would require an approaching vehicle to slow down and swerve as the gate is approached.... I am thinking that something similar so that these kids don't feel like they are standing guard with their fly unzipped and the locals are aware that US military personnel are in the area, (armed and disciplined, I hope) and to approach with caution.... There seems to be a need for a cooling off distance...

Some way of establishing intent...

I don't want to see any more innocents harmed and I am sick of the daily death lottery where one or two kids parents get that visit from the chaplain and the notifying officer...

[seeker41]

and an Owl hooted...

[dwd1]

I really hate when that happens...

[Redleg Duke]

Well, the Canuks have plenty of prose...for folks who hide behind their French skirts.

[frostbit]

But the winner has to be frostbit, who actually suggests that it was Iraqis who shot the civilians, Iraqis in US uniforms driving US Humvees. Just can't get his head around scared, trigger happy troops who have been in the field too long. Can't imagine any US tropps perpetuating such an atrocity, so it must be those crafty Iraqis shooting their own people again.
_____________

Thanks, clamboat. I'm glad that someone like you has an omniscient source to tell us all what really happened, or perhaps it was divine guidance on your part.

I based my opinions on my own limited experience actually leading troops in combat in GW1. Let's see if I can be more precise for you, in order to assuage your abject disbelief of my remarks.

Have there been Iraqis killed wearing coalition uniforms, right down to the shoulder patches? Yes, as reported by several news sources. Have there been additional caches of these uniforms recovered? Again, yes. Have the US/UK forces recovered training manuals describing how to carry out just these types of attacks? Absolutely. Are there insurgents actively carrying out sabotage attacks on infrastructure in order to engender anti coalition forces? Yep.

The author of the article has apparently pieced together 'witness' accounts from several incidents that occurred in the same vicinity over several days. Is it possible that events occurred exactly as described? Anything is possible, but I find it highly unlikely if the troops are the same high caliber I am familiar with. There are certainly some psychotic troops willing to roll grenades under their commanders tent, but they are thankfully the very rare exception.

Contrary to your grand military-cover-up-in-the-making assertion, the military did comment. The Lt General (that's THREE stars) said he was not aware of the incidents, which leads to several possiblities: (1) It didn't happen; (2) It happened, but the US military wasn't involved; (3) It happened as described, and the three star general is ignorant or a liar.

So, my choices, given the limited information provided, are thus: I can believe that the military personnel conducted themselves professionally and according to their training, whatever actually happened, OR, I can believe that US soldiers murdered innocent civilians either intentionally or because they were 'in the field too long' as you asserted. The soldiers abandoned the dead bodies and the victims in some cases, or torched the car with the victim still inside in another. To believe this, I would have to think the witnesses here are credible. Of course, the Iraqis have NEVER been known to fabricate or exaggerate stories to the media, and someone who wants to drink Bush's blood HAS to be truthful.

Believing this tripe as reported flies in the face of everything I've experienced about the military folks. Until proven otherwise, I know which side I'm willing to believe. Of course, everyone has bias based on their life experiences, and the black helicopter crowd may fall on a different side of the fence.

From the tone and tenor of your post, it's pretty clear where you stand. With limited facts, it's just as improbable to you that the soldiers acted honorably, as it is to me that they did not. And that's fine, we're just going to have to disagree. Vehemently, in my case.

[an amused spectator]

Scheherezade Faramarzi is the Associated Press troll who launched one of the initial attacks intended to discredit the US over the Jessica Lynch rescue:

Iraqis say US too forceful in Lynch rescue

Her stuff is seditious crap.

[smith288]

Can I say Vietnam? Sure... Vietnam... Are they similiar??? Well... I like to look at the data sometimes

	Total Deaths	Total Days	AVG
Vietnam	58,202	4,015	14.5
Iraq	261	144	1.8

Never minimizing the deaths of the men over there in referring to them as "numbers" but they sure dont add up to being another Vietnam.

[Burkeman1]

I wonder if the Brits ever thought about that in the last 30 or so years that they have been in Northern Ireland? Cut off the money! I am sure that a few MI5 guys and the British public imagined a cigar chomping Irish American industrialist was behind the whole financing of the IRA. In reality- there were myriad front groups, associations, clubs, charity "fund raisers", and dozens of other methods to get money from Irish Americans and Republic of Ireland citizens to fund the military wing of the IRA. Heck- when I was going to Boston College there was (is) a bar called Kinvara that used to have a huge Jar on the bar labeled NOIRAID (Northern Ireland Aid) and people would drop money into it. Everyone knew it was a front for the IRA (I never gave any money by the way)

What I am trying to say is that cutting off the money is nearly impossible when most of it comes from small donors. Now times the money given to the IRA by about 200 and that is what you have with middle eastern terrorist organizations.

[Burkeman1]

I will stick to my position that we need to cut off the money and they are done for...

I think that position is better suited concerning the Democrat Party which really is funded by only a handful of evil bigwigs. That is doable.

[dwd1]

I think that will be a distant dream...

However, I have to confess that a part of me shares that one with you....(please don't tell my mom, she thinks Clinton was a hero!!!)

[Terriergal]

Get the utilities going

Didn't the Iraqi wildmen sabotage those themselves? (and probably continue to do so?)

[dwd1]

No argument there. It is the grass roots support that is difficult to deal with.... However, the type of war that Al-Qaeda is waging is not that expensive...300K for the operation....

Maybe our problem is not cutting off the money as much as following it.....

I have trouble believing that the finances of these organizations can not be countered in some way. I do concede that the next best thing to cutting off the money is taking the fight to them and dispensing leather and lead enemas wholesale...

[Terriergal]

Deterrence is the name of the game for most kinds of persistent evil/violence.

[dwd1]

I have always been fond of the expression, "He who asserts must prove!"

Not saying that the US military is not capable of making mistakes but I do know that as a policy, we try to minimize civilian casualties because we know about the public relation nightmare that will result...

I will say, however, that I think those kids over there are tired (probably have not been getting an adequate amount of TLC from the opposite sex) and really need our support. Until I see some independent confirmation of this incident, I think I will stand with on that vehement disagreement position....

[dwd1]

The attitude expressed by some reminds me of the treatment soldiers received coming back from Vietnam...Being called names, spit on, etc...Blaming the executors of the policy rather than the formulators of the policy and having those young kids left out to dry by the politicians and the American Public...that is something that happened re:Vietnam that I do not want to see again....

[dwd1]

Speak softly...carry an industrial strength, 55 gallon, down home Mississippi can of whoop@$$...

And take away their money...

I was thinking that the KKK got hurt pretty bad after a lawsuit was brought that cost the leader of an organization everything....

Unfortunately, I think many suits against the Iraqis and the Saudis are being dismissed....

[Burkeman1]

Deterrence/containment.