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GIBSON'S PASSION (New York Sun op-ed by ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman)
The New York Sun/ADL Website ^
| 8/4/03
| Abraham H. Foxman
Posted on 08/07/2003 5:56:58 PM PDT by DPB101
click here to read article
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To: Cacophonous
I'm very unhappy when I see the Jewish dominated ACLU ganging up against the Boy Scouts, public prayer, 10 Commandments Monument in Alabama and Christmas crèches. Mel Gibson's film will be seen in many countries. It might incite hatred of Jews in some of these places same as the Passion Plays of old incited many a pogrom. From this standpoint Foxman is right to express concern
At the same time Horowitz says the film is great.
21
posted on
08/07/2003 7:47:52 PM PDT
by
dennisw
(G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
To: Alouette
Loved it, man!!
Foxman should be playing pinochle and heading for early-bird specials. He'd be doing less damage to us Jews that way...
22
posted on
08/07/2003 7:51:19 PM PDT
by
Pharmboy
(Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
To: dennisw
Has Foxman seen it? I don't recall seeing it in the article. If he hasn't seen it, then he has NO room for criticism.
To: dennisw
the secular humanist liberal Jewish dominated ACLU Or is that self-understood whenever you say ACLU?
They get just as hysterical whenever Chabad puts up public menorahs for Chanukah.
24
posted on
08/07/2003 8:17:08 PM PDT
by
Alouette
(Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
To: DPB101
This is nonsense. There is no new doctrine regarding the Jews. The Catholic Church can't invent doctrines in order to get along better with Jews or anybody else. It can't rescind official teachings which are binding on the faithful, no matter how politically correct it may seem to do so. Catholics, along with other Christians, are obliged to accept the evidence of the Gospels--which explains unequivocally that the chief priests and the Pharisees sought to arrest Jesus to have him eliminated. No public relations ploy by ADL can change this.
And while it is true that crimes have been perpetrated against the Jews on the part of some who have called themselves Christians, the Church itself has never sought to delegitimize Judaism in any way nor to preach anti-Semitism. This is a falsehood tantamount to slander. The ADL should know better. It is also speaking nonsense when it declares there was "no Jewish role" in the death of Jesus. Of course there was--and all Christians know it. But we do not blame the Jewish people themselves for what transpired. The death of Jesus was the fault of all of all of us. THAT has been the perennial teaching of the Church which ADL conveniently ignores.
To: ultima ratio
Every premise in this op-ed is false.
26
posted on
08/07/2003 8:49:00 PM PDT
by
DPB101
To: Alouette
Oh, so true. It needs to be repeated.
And often.
27
posted on
08/07/2003 8:54:15 PM PDT
by
kstewskis
(edited tagline to follow...."mmphhffmmffphmmffff...")
To: Northern Yankee; lorrainer; GirlShortstop
...getting sick of this "spew" yet?-PING!!
I need an antedote....quick.
![](http://www.spacesurfer.com/mceleb/dyn/25468/Mel_Gibson4.jpg)
Ahhhh....I'm feeling better now....
(sorry Jay...bear with me!)
To: DPB101
Every premise in this op-ed is false.Your premises are wrong.
1) That this film will not be seen in places where it might be uh ..... misunderstood.... Where it might serve as potent anti Jewish propaganda. I'm not talking about the United States but I am talking about certain Muslim countries and certain places in Europe.
2) That because you don't care about #1, people who do are to be heaped with opprobrium. Such as the Jews that raise some misgiving. Abe Foxmann for this thread
3) You forget or plain don't care that Passion plays in the past have lead to programs and riots against Jews. And at times were staged to accomplish this. Therefore Jewish concern is legitimate.
I haven't seen the film so don't know how it stacks up against the Passion plays of old. I think some are still put on?
29
posted on
08/07/2003 10:59:28 PM PDT
by
dennisw
(G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
To: ultima ratio
And while it is true that crimes have been perpetrated against the Jews on the part of some who have called themselves Christians, the Church itself has never sought to delegitimize Judaism in any way nor to preach anti-Semitism.Is "the Church" the Roman Catholic Church? It has not preached anti Semitism at any time during the last 2000 years? What was the Inquisition? A mirage?
30
posted on
08/07/2003 11:03:56 PM PDT
by
dennisw
(G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
To: ultima ratio
31
posted on
08/07/2003 11:10:31 PM PDT
by
dennisw
(G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
To: joesnuffy
Amen, Alleluia!
To: dennisw
First, the Church had a moderating effect on the Spanish Inquisition--but the inquisitors were appointed by Isabella and Ferdinand.
Second, the expulsion of all Jews from Spain by Torquemada was followed by the expulsion of all Muslims. Jews were not singled out just for being Jews. The issue was religious, not ethnic. In addition, unorthodox Christians suffered just as much.
Third, the charges against the Inquisition are overblown. Modern scholars have determined that in 350 years only about 4000 people perished, an average of about 4 people per year. (According to Will Durant.)
Fourth, because of the Inquisition, Spain never suffered the religious warfare experienced by the rest of Europe--conflicts which took hundreds of thousands of lives.
To: dennisw
Where have riots ever broken out after the performance of Passion Plays? I have heard this claim--but have never seen any credible evidence that this has ever actually occurred. Perhaps in Nazi Germany--but surely not elsewhere--and surely not in modern times.
When the ADL and other Jewish organizations make this charge, they fail to see how aggressive and offensive this sounds to Christians who have an altogether different take on such matters. To Christians this sounds like interference by those outside the faith. When ADL denies outright any Jewish role in the death of Jesus, this sounds to Christians like a challenge to the veracity of the Gospels themselves. This can only injure Jewish-Christian relations.
To: dennisw
It is this sort of anti-Catholicism--claiming the Vatican waged an anti-Semitic war against the Jews--that most Catholics find outrageous. Over the years I've read a great deal of this propaganda--half-truths, outright lies, and carefully manipulated journalistic distortions not unlike the nonsense being written about Mel Gibson's movie and by extension about the Gospel accounts themselves--purporting to find evil where none was ever intended. Why should this kind of anti-Catholic bigotry be any more tolerable than anti-Semitism?
To: joesnuffy; kstewskis; Victoria Delsoul; ninenot
Excellent points you make!
In the Gospel of John Jesus also tells Pilate, and all who were present, "You would have no authority over me unless it were given to you by my father."
Again over the centuries the Catholic Church has understood this meaning, and has not leveled charges against anyone. This would only counter all that Jesus has said.
I certainly feel that these accusations against Mel's movie have more to do with shutting him up, than actually charging anything based on anti-semitism.
36
posted on
08/08/2003 5:19:03 AM PDT
by
Northern Yankee
(Freedom.... needs a soldier !)
To: kstewskis
In regards to post # 28...
Not a problem.
BTW... who's the guy in the chair? (Grins)
37
posted on
08/08/2003 5:22:54 AM PDT
by
Northern Yankee
(Freedom.... needs a soldier !)
To: DPB101; kstewskis
If our concerns would turn out to be unjustified, we will be eager to say so.
ROFLMAO! ![](http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/icons/roflmao.gif)
Thanks kstew for the *pic* and the ping!
To: dennisw
1) That this film will not be seen in places where it might be uh ..... misunderstood.... Where it might serve as potent anti Jewish propaganda. I'm not talking about the United States but I am talking about certain Muslim countries and certain places in Europe. I'm not Catholic, but everything I've heard says this movie attempts to stick as closely as possible to the gospel accounts. If it can be used as "anti-Jewish propaganda", then presumably so can the New Testament.
So would you condemn a Christian for ignoring the "misgivings" of non-Christians about the New Testament? Why? Should a Jew be worried about my "misgivings" concerning the Talmud?
39
posted on
08/08/2003 6:14:54 AM PDT
by
Sloth
("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
To: Northern Yankee
I certainly feel that these accusations against Mel's movie have more to do with shutting him up, than actually charging anything based on anti-semitism. Me, too. There's more anti-Christianity at work here than anti-Semitism. The ones screaming the loudest over this movie seem to hate religion in general, overt expressions of devotion specifically, and overt expressions of Christian devotion most of all.
I wonder how often Ms. Fredrickson, a "scholar", actually observes the Sabbath according to her faith. I wonder if she believes in anything she studies. I simply don't believe she's genuinely concerned or genuinely expects a new wave of "pogroms" against Jews due to this movie. I think their report was a hit piece by religion-haters and Christian-haters in particular.
These synagogue burnings and beatings of Jews around Europe certainly aren't happening because of Mel Gibson's movie.
40
posted on
08/08/2003 6:44:31 AM PDT
by
wimpycat
(Down with Kooks and Kookery!)
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