NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship

Baltimore Sun ^ | July 16, 2003 | Scott Shane

[Mo1]

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[aristeides]

If you look at Bamford's account, it's pretty clear that one of his chief sources was Dr. Louis Tordella, Deputy Director of NSA in 1967. In fact, I heard Bamford confirm on TV on Sunday that Tordella was one of his sources, and that Tordella concluded the attack was deliberate. Why would the Deputy Director of NSA have concluded this?

The memoir of Richard Helms, Director of Central Intelligence in 1967, has just been published posthumously. It reveals that a secret CIA board of inquiry into the Liberty incident concluded at the time that the Israeli attack was deliberate. The passage in Helms's book makes it clear that Helms shared this belief. Why would the board of inquiry and the Director of Central Intelligence have reached this conclusion?

[Iris7]

This is a more controversial issue than I thought. When I mentioned the Liberty on another thread I was accused of Ku Klux Klanism, then Naziism, then Anti-Semitism. The screams and abuse I took did not come from people who thought they were innocent.

As far as the motives the Israelis had in attacking a clearly marked and obviously US Navy vessel, how am I to know what their motives were? If the Israelis won't say why they did it, how am I to know what their side of the story is? The "accident" stonewall is worthy of Bill Clinton. Am I to come to the conclusion that Israel and Bill Clinton are morally equal?

The fact is I support the United States pro-Israel policy. The Moslem nations must be dragged, kicking and screaming, into modern life (as ugly as modern life is.)

[beelzepug]

No kidding. I got hit right between the eyes on this one last week. I was a Jew-hater, didn't think Israel should have secure borders, I was even accused of making a comparison to 9-11 (that may have been due to my reference to suicide bombers; the ones in Israel's cafes and markets, not the hijackers). I guess to the most rabid Zionists, if you ever disagree with ANYTHING Israel does, you are an anti-semite. I also support our pro-Israel policy but I'm not especially happy with their leadership right now.

[Poohbah]

If you look at Bamford's account, it's pretty clear that one of his chief sources was Dr. Louis Tordella, Deputy Director of NSA in 1967. In fact, I heard Bamford confirm on TV on Sunday that Tordella was one of his sources, and that Tordella concluded the attack was deliberate. Why would the Deputy Director of NSA have concluded this?

Because otherwise it becomes a BIG problem for his reputation, because he was probably the guy who deliberately (and feloniously) cut the Liberty off from the US Navy chain of command, preventing them from getting the order to move away from the war zone.

[Dead Dog]

"If they knew it was an Egyptian ship, why did they think the crew might speak English?" Bamford asks.


Probably because their were Israeli boats at the scene when the Helos were enroute. The boats would have been the first to ident the ship. That info would have filtered up and down the chain of command quickly.

[American in Israel]

Well, the case is pretty clear at this point that the United States told the Israeli's that they had no ship in the area before the attack, and the tapes just released show the Israeli planes radioing back disputing that it was an Egyptian ship. If the IDA were attacking a known American ship, why would they be arguing if it was an American ship or not on their radios?

At this point Israel is pretty clearly been exonerated, and to go on ignoring the mountain of evidence to say they deliberately did it is set of loaded dice.

Perhaps you should discuss why the United states bombed the Canadians in Afghanistan, it is a bit more recent... Stuff happens in war, it is called the fog of war. Some people seem to never be able to clear the fog even after the war, or is it that they do not want too.

Must be a Beelzebub thing.

[maestro]

Your# 7..........

Because otherwise it becomes a BIG problem for his reputation, because he was probably the guy who deliberately (and feloniously) cut the Liberty off from the US Navy chain of command, preventing them from getting the order to move away from the war zone.

?.............the US Navy chain of command?.............

'State'.........?

[Cachelot]

Hmmmmm.... JRadcliffe, is that you? Did you miss us? Getting a bit antsy?

Posted by Brooklyn_Park_MD to PenguinWry
On News/Activism ^ 07/07/2003 2:51 AM PDT #68 of 91 ^

It is time to put President Bush and Donald Rumfeild on trial by US Citzens court, no doubt they are guilty and should be hang.

[aristeides]

When I was in a U.S. Air Force signals intelligence unit in Berlin in the 1970's, we officially did not exist. The Russians, of course, were well aware that we were there. Our nonexistence was a diplomatic fiction.

I suspect that the supposed absence of the Liberty from the Med in 1967 was the same sort of diplomatic lie. And the Israelis would have been well aware of the need to take U.S. government denials of the presence of any ships with the requisite several grains of salt.

[aristeides]

If Bamford's account is correct, the Joint Chiefs of Staff had themselves -- highly unusually -- taken direct command of the movements and mission of the Liberty, and the NSA, as a component of the Defense Department, was just obeying their orders.

[beelzepug]

Well, let's see.....big, gray ship, broad daylight, American flag, lots of non-Arab-looking sailors on deck, or.....some unidentified guys, at night, in the dark, no flag. What does FOX say..."We report, you decide?" And please spare me the "YOU HATE ISRAEL" crap. It ain't true and it gets real old.

[Poohbah]

The Liberty was deliberately cut out of the Sixth Fleet chain of command by the NSA. The NSA did this by having orders issued to the Liberty that any signals to the Liberty had to go through certain NSA-approved channels before they could be acted on, and specifically forbade the Liberty from copying the Fleet Broadcast sent from NAVCAMS MED in Naples.

[VOA]

And the Israelis would have been well aware of the need to take U.S. government
denials of the presence of any ships with the requisite several grains of salt.

Maybe being in a shooting war caused a momentary (and tragic) "short between the ears"
for someone on the Israeli side...

(not excusing what happened, just wondering if that might be part of an explanation)

[aristeides]

That sounds like a military order that the NSA would not have had the authority to issue. The JCS -- or officers in the Navy acting on their command -- would, however, have had such authority.

[Poohbah]

If Bamford's account is correct, the Joint Chiefs of Staff had themselves -- highly unusually -- taken direct command of the movements and mission of the Liberty, and the NSA, as a component of the Defense Department, was just obeying their orders.

Actually, it was somewhat in reverse. The NSA used its (considerable) influence with the Joint Staff to get orders issued to the Liberty that were to the NSA's liking. Part of those orders were sections forbidding the Liberty from acting on any directive that was not sent through NSA-approved channels. The biggest no-no was that the NSA ensured that the Liberty would not act on ANY directive sent over the NAVCAMS MED fleet broadcast.

The Joint Chiefs of Staff sent a message to the Liberty well before the attack, directing that the ship stay a healthy distance away from the war zone. It was sent over the NAVCAMS MED broadcast. It was not acted on because it didn't come over an NSA-approved circuit. And then the NSA-blessed communications stations just plumb FORGOT how to properly route message traffic to the Liberty. They did fine in the days BEFORE the attack. They did just fine AFTER the attack. But the ONE time it was absolutely vital that the NSA's system work, it didn't. And nobody ever gave a convincing reason why.

[Poohbah]

That sounds like a military order that the NSA would not have had the authority to issue. The JCS -- or officers in the Navy acting on their command -- would, however, have had such authority.

That's right.

The NSA doesn't issue the orders. They just whip out their little black book, let their fingers do the walking, and make a few phone calls. And then the military authorities issue the orders, SHAZAM!

[aristeides]

Source? Link?