A Final Push for the Bedeviled, Beloved Osprey

The New York Times ^ | 07/06/03 | LESLIE WAYNE

[Drago]

I tend to agree with this review: http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb72.pdf

[Bobsat]

So do I. Thanks for the link. On page 8, it says:

Most important, if a helicopter loses engine power (e.g., the engine fails or is shot out by hostile fire), it can still safely land by using autorotation (analogous to “gliding” without engine power for a fixed-wing aircraft).48 But this operational requirement for all other Navy helicopters was waived for the V-22, largely because it cannot autorotate. Elaine Grossman of Inside Defense reported of the V-22 that “should a pilot lose engine power and try to restart it, ‘autorotation descent cannot be maintained,’ [quotation from GAO report] which could ostensibly lead to a crash.”49 In this respect, the V-22 may actually be less survivable than helicopters.

Since it couldn't autorotate, the operational requirement was waived. Of course, now the V-22 aplogists will now accuse the Cato Institute of being liars in quoting liars in their report.

[marinemomof1]

I have read everything I can get my hands on about the MV-22 Osprey aircraft. Why would I, a Marine mom, read everything I can get my hands on about the Osprey aircraft? I read about it, and learn what I can about it, because I now live a nightmare because of it. While the more techincal things often go over my head, there are some things I understand very clearly. I know that the slightest mistake kills, and even the "best of the best" cannot keep it in the air.

On April 8, 2000, 19 Marines were killed, many of them just kids. One of those Marines on board that night was my son. Just a month before the April crash, some of those very kids were on a training mission in an Osprey that almost crashed, but was saved at the last minute. When given the choice to fly back or hike out 25 miles, the kids chose to hike out. That aircraft did not crash, so it was not considered an incident and was not reported as such. Some of the families follow the progress of this aircraft, and too many times we hear of near misses. It is just a matter of time before another goes down, taking someone else's kids to their graves. I find it interesting that there has been very little said of the the lead plane that night in April. It also hit the ground very hard, skidded 450 feet, finally landing in a ravine. By the grace of God, it did not explode as my son's plane did. Instead, those Marines were evacuated and stood by to watch my son's plane burn out of control, knowing there was nothing they could do to save anyone on board.

One of the young men who died with my son told his mother to start planning his funeral because he was going to die, and he was going to die in an Osprey. He had been in the plane that had a close call the month before. This mom told her son to stop being silly...then a month later buried him. Almost every family has a story just like that one. Our kids were scared, they did not want to go on that aircraft, but they are Marines and they followed orders. Now, they are dead. What so many fail to realize is that this "thing" has destroyed lives. It has brought too many to the brink of suicide. The powers that be don't care about these young Marines who have to fly in Ospreys, or the families left behind in agonizing grief when they die. Why should they care? It's not their loved ones being forced to board this death trap. As it has proven all too well, when it crashes, there is no hope for survival. While those who push for the Osprey sit around their holiday tables, or share in various family celebrations, we, the victims of their greed, sit at a gravesite weeping, being forced to share the same memories discussed over and over these last 3 years and knowing there will never be new stories. I know what happens when one of these things crashes. I held my son, or rather, what was left of him, in my arms before he was buried, sobbing tears of agony because knew I would never hold him again. His precious body was destroyed.... there was almost nothing left. I wish that when Col. Schultz shares in his next family celebration that he is aware of those of us whose lives are left shattered. If he would not put his child on an MV-22 Osprey and send that child through the same maneuvers that my son and the others went through, then he should never put someone else's child in that same danger. My son did not sign up with the Corps to be dead in 14 months. He did not say to me, "Can't wait to fall out of the sky, all in the name of money and greed." What he said to me was that he wanted to be a Marine so we could continue to live in freedom, and he would make sure no harm came to us on his watch. How painful it is for my family to know we were not able to keep him from harm. When the recruiter came to my house to talk to me about my son going to boot camp early, I voiced to him my concerns about my son's safety. He said, "Ma'am, we would never put your son in harms way". He was either an incredible liar, or he is a very foolish man.

As you banter back and forth, please remember those of us who live with this nightmare every single second of every single day. I know there are some family members, and it is only a couple of them, who will not speak badly of the Osprey because they do not want their loved one's deaths to be in vain. My response to them is, "Too stinking late". When another aircraft flies with troops in it, all those who lost their lives will have done so for nothing. No lessons have been learned, and our grief is meaningless. God help those whose kids are signing up with the Corps today who have no idea about the MV-22 Osprey. Their kids are the next guinea pigs.

[Travis McGee]

You'll take the word of the pilots who have been ordered to fly it, and whose fitness reports will reflect how gung-ho they pretend to be about the project.

The rest of the active duty Marines I know call it the Widowmaker and are praying for it to be axed.

[Travis McGee]

A few questions, oh Osprey Defender:

/1/ Can it land safely if it loses both engines?

/2/ If due to mechanical failure or battle damage, the rotors cannot convert from forward to overhead, can it land safely?

/3/ How can it fire weapons forward for protection, now that the nose gun has been removed from consideration as too heavy?

[Travis McGee]

Respectfully, please read 44 and comment.

[Travis McGee]

One of the many aspects of this program which is so disturbing is watching Marine GENERALS touting the civilian aviation spinoff potential of the Osprey. It makes me wonder what jobs await them at Bell and Boeing upon retirement??

If this plane is the perfect answer for busy executives, then let the GENERALS test it first. Let them fly it exclusively, between the Pentagon, Andrews AFB, and all bases within range, in all weather,in all seasons, day and night.

When the GENERALS have racked up a few thousand safe flying hours in this aircraft, THEN let them order Marine enlisted men and junior officers to fly it.

To order Marine enlisted men and JOs to fly in an aircraft the GENERALS are afraid to fly smacks of dishonor.

And I don't mean a few clear-weather daytime photo-op hops. The GENERALS need to ride this bird in all weather, all seasons, day and night for a year.

Then I will be satisfied.

[Travis McGee]

One of the many aspects of this program which is so disturbing is watching Marine GENERALS touting the civilian aviation spinoff potential of the Osprey. It makes me wonder what jobs await them at Bell and Boeing upon retirement??

If this plane is the perfect answer for busy executives, then let the GENERALS test it first. Let them fly it exclusively, between the Pentagon, Andrews AFB, and all bases within range, in all weather,in all seasons, day and night.

When the GENERALS have racked up a few thousand safe flying hours in this aircraft, THEN let them order Marine enlisted men and junior officers to fly it.

To order Marine enlisted men and JOs to fly in an aircraft the GENERALS are afraid to fly smacks of dishonor.

And I don't mean a few clear weather daytime photo-op hops. The GENERALS need to ride this bird in all weather, all seasons, day and night for a year.

Then I will be satisfied.

[Travis McGee]

Now that you have read 44, would you like to comment?

[Bobsat]

My heart goes out to you and your family over the tragic and avoidable loss of your son.

I hope you will be spared the harassment and invective of those who seem to delight in ignorantly abusing anyone who impugns the suitability of the V-22 as a military transport, but I also hope you will speak out fearlessly about it.

Every aircraft design ever made has or will suffer a complete loss of engine power, and an inviolable design criterion for those that carry passengers is that the subsequent landing be survivable.

Every aircraft ever made has an uncontrollable flight region that should not be able to be entered in normal operations. That is also an inviolable design criterion.

The Osprey fails on BOTH of those criteria! When either one of them also involves the exigencies of battle, pilot fatigue, mission pressure, and the general tendency of human beings to just plain screw up, a crash will result. Human beings are always the weakest link in technology, and the design criteria are to minimize the consequences of the inevitible human failings to operate the technology safely.

As the Cato report reveals, there is no defensible mission for the V-22 that cannot be accomplished safer and cheaper by proven aircraft designs.

Semper Fi, marinemofof1, and may you be blessed in your efforts involving your son and in all aspects of your life.

[Bobsat]

I will not be satisfied at all unless the V-22's design allows for safe power off landings and that ability has been thoroughly demonstrated.

I will not be fully satisfied unless the V-22's design is shown to comply with the safety design criteria that have been proven necessary over the century of aircraft development that we cannot ignore by greed driven fiat.

As I've said and implied before in the Osprey threads, the crew voluntarily puts their lives on the line, but there's a higher responsibility on the designers, manufacturers, ground support and crew when passengers are involved.

There being nothing further to consider, the V-22 program should be terminated.

[Travis McGee]

And it really burns me that they are testing it on non-volunteers who are ordered to ride it.

[Bobsat]

Totally unnecessary and unconscionable. On a smaller scale, it's analogous to assigning soldiers to be in the test area of atomic bombs at the Nevada Test Site in the '50s "to see what the effects on them would be."

Those stupid decisions are made at the command level, and I'm still optimistic in believing that designers and engineers would never subject innocents to such risks.

[Travis McGee]

The designers, engineers, Boeing and Bel execs and Marine Generals should be the mandatory passengers on the first year of flying.

[Bobsat]

Plus a few CongressCritters....

[Travis McGee]

Exactly right!

[Missmyson]

The biggest flaw regarding the Osprey, is our hearts. I, too, lost my son on April 8th, 2000. My son was the crew chief and was a vey proud Marine, as I was and will always be a Proud Marine Mom.
Reply 44 speaks for all of us broken-hearted moms. I pray to God another family doesn't have to go through the torture of loosing a child for such a senseless cause.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I take the words of pilots who volunteer, meaning they aren't ordered, to fly the aircraft. There are a lot more pilots volunteering to fly the Osprey than there are asking to be transferred from the program. Anybody who wanted off the program was allowed to go, no questions asked. I take the words of pilots who are tired of flying 40 year old helicopters that have had their flight envelopes restricted due to airframe fatigue. I take the word of people like Lt. Col. Ron Culp who requested his detailer ensure that he would be given orders back to the Osprey program following his year in Okinawa. How many Marines do you personally know who are involved in the project at PAX River, New River and Quantico?

I know a lot of grunts who are scared to death of flying in a 40 year old CH-46, the Boeing Body Bag and can't wait until they're replaced with MV-22s. I know a lot of grunts who are afraid that their AAVs are going to flood and sink every time they muster in the well deck. I know a lot of grunts who worry that the Marine bringing up the rear on a patrol will get sloppy, make a mistake and end up getting the rest of his squad or fire team killed in an ambush. I also know a Master Gunny who is the avionics chief, as well as a crew chief, in a CH-53E squadron at New River who wears a rabbits foot every time he flies and keeps chewable pepto bismol tablets in his flightsuit to calm his stomach. How many Marines do you know at VMMT-204?