Shroud of germs (Shroud of Turin theory)

The Guardian (UK) ^ | Thursday June 12, 2003 | Laura Spinney

[Zavien Doombringer]

DO you think that Jesus would have left a relic for others to worship?

Why wasn't the cloth mentioned with in the 50 days from crucifixion to pentecost? Sureley someone would have seen it by then? after all he had many followers...If you believe this shroud is Jesus's Shroud, that's fine, If I am wrong, it doesn't matter for my salvation, but if I am right, you wasted alot of faith in a piece of a hoax...Christians are to walk by faith, not by sight, that includes the sight of a piece of cloth, or a vial of copper looking like blood...trickery to decieve...Jesus never used these things...

[William Terrell]

I can remember a response by a poster, refering to the superman image of Jesus used in Christian materials advertising (Christ Calls!. . you to these GREAT bargans!) that, we must remember, Jesus was a Jew.

It echoed in my mind. . .Huh?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the heads up!

I've read several different descriptions of the burial practices back then. I'm not sure which would apply in this case, or if the method used with Jesus' body was unique.

[Aquinasfan]

I suppose one could find a chap of similar features, daub him with ochre, have him lie on a similar sized cloth, fold half over him and gently press to obtain an impression, touch up the details with tempura paint, soil the image a bit to give it a bit of patina and appearance of age, and then there would be a similar object.

This would not correspond to the image on the Shroud because:

1) There is no pigment on the Shroud. The yellowed fibers have been "scorched" by some kind of energy.

2) Imagine what an unfolded box would look like compared to a photograph of the front of a box. Using this method, the face would appear to be flattened, because the image would contain orthographic projections of the sides of the head.

3) This image would not be a negative image.

4) This image would not contain an embedded 3D topographic map of a human body.

[William Terrell]

Before or after the crusades? Before the mingling of the people or after?

What "mingling"? Jewish folks have always been very protective of their heritage, their faith and their traditions. As I understand it, there was little "mingling" with the even Kazarian royalty which converted to Judiasm. It's only these days do I see complaints that Jews are marring outside their faith.

Do you have any photographs or DNA samples of Noah, his sons and, more importantly, their wives? Until you do, I'm afraid you just have a theory based on private opinion, and some anthropologists' opinions who likewise lack photos and DNA samples.

[Zavien Doombringer]

This would not correspond to the image on the Shroud because:

1) There is no pigment on the Shroud. The yellowed fibers have been "scorched" by some kind of energy. - the scorched theory isn't proven...not to mention the artist who did this already confessed.

2) Imagine what an unfolded box would look like compared to a photograph of the front of a box. Using this method, the face would appear to be flattened, because the image would contain orthographic projections of the sides of the head. - not to mention the folds of sheet that wrapped around the face which can produce a negative 3d image, if there was any un orthodox way of placing a sheet on anyone other than laying down on the face, no matter who it was please describe that technique, gravity works on everyone the same way.

3) This image would not be a negative image. - No different than taking a photo, which produces a negetive image

4) This image would not contain an embedded 3D topographic map of a human body. - a 2 dimensional photo doesn't either.

[Zavien Doombringer]

Precisely my point, was there any DNA in the blood stains on the shroud?

At least half of the helix, I mean, Mary ws involved in this.

By the way, I don't think the hebrew/jewish women had any say when the Crusaders raped them...Thank you Pope Urban II

[Aquinasfan]

I don't know what the customs were,

The body was laid on the lower half of a long, single sheet of linen which was then folded over the head and draped over the front of the body.

This corresponds to the image on the Shroud which shows both the front and the back of the body.

[Zavien Doombringer]

http://anchorstone.com
Click on the link for information on Noah's ark and other biblical Arch digs...Facinating!

[Aquinasfan]

DO you think that Jesus would have left a relic for others to worship?

No Catholic worships the shroud. In fact, the Church hasn't even declared the Shroud to be authentic. No Catholic is obligated to believe in its authenticity.

However, Christ may have left us the Shroud to convince skeptics in our materialist age. Many skeptical scientists who have studied the Shroud have converted.

Why wasn't the cloth mentioned with in the 50 days from crucifixion to pentecost? Sureley someone would have seen it by then?

I don't know. Why didn't anyone mention the whereabouts of the Cross, or Mary's tomb, or the upper room, or Joseph's death?

after all he had many followers...If you believe this shroud is Jesus's Shroud, that's fine, If I am wrong, it doesn't matter for my salvation, but if I am right, you wasted alot of faith in a piece of a hoax...

That doesn't necessarily follow. Learning about the Shroud is certainly of equal or greater value than watching TV, something which you may have done, and the available evidence points to the Shrouds authenticity.

Christians are to walk by faith, not by sight,...

The earth and heavens declare the glory of God.

that includes the sight of a piece of cloth, or a vial of copper looking like blood...trickery to decieve...Jesus never used these things...

Jesus gave us intellects which we are not to despise. Use yours, and you will find it highly probable that Jesus left us with His burial cloth (and almost certainly several Eucharistic miracles).

[Zavien Doombringer]

Christ didn't leave anything...as far as the eucharist is concerned, it is never mentioned in scripture, and to say that Christ declares it in in the last supper, by Catechism standard makes a mockery of God and Christ. Not to mention cannabalistic ritual. It also comes from the egyptian religion of sun worshipping, Transsubstantiation. Do you honestly believ, Christ will come down from his throne, maninifest himself into a wafer (idol worship - Against Gods own law) at the command of an earthly being..to be EATEN and swallowed...there is much to be thinking here. Pagan worship, Cannabalism, and A man commanding God...Don't think so...I used to be catholic...This ritual in itself makes a mockery of Christs' death on the cross and ressurection...

[William Terrell]

By the way, I don't think the hebrew/jewish women had any say when the Crusaders raped them

Did the crusaders rape Jewish women? If they did, did they rape enough, that got pregnant, to change the face of Jewish progeny extant? How do you know?

[cyncooper]

Religious critics have long noted that the Turin shroud is incompatible with the bible, which describes multiple burial wrappings, including a separate “napkin” that covered Jesus’ face (John 20:5–7).

Shroud of Turin Looking More Genuine, Researcher Contends.

Excerpt:

His announcement came in the wake of a Spanish TV report Wednesday on new research which shows that another shroud, venerated for 1,000 years in the Cathedral of Oviedo, Spain, is probably the cloth that covered Christ´s head after his crucifixion.

SNIP

Meanwhile, TV station "Antena 3" said that other research indicates that the relic in Oviedo, in northwest Spain, also has amazing points of coincidence with the Shroud of Turin.

For 12 years a multidisciplinary team of 40 scientists applied modern techniques, used in criminal investigations, on the Oviedo relic. The forensic experts discovered human bloodstains of the AB group, identical to those on the Shroud of Turin.

[happydogdesign]

Amazing- an admitted and proven fake relic has been transmogrified into a miracle by those so weak in their own faith that they have to fabricate nonsense to bolster their belief. It's generally a relatively harmless delusion. I know people who swear the cross was made from dogwood because souvenir selling hucksters in Tennessee concocted a silly fairy tale to move more dogwood merchandise. Of course, there are more serious consequences for the folks that waste their savings financing playboy evangelists or forgoe needed medical treatments for themselves or their children or kiss rattlesnakes because they believe that proves they are faithful. Then there are always those people who get goofy enough to butcher the infidels to get right with their version of divinity...

[Aquinasfan]

Christ didn't leave anything...as far as the eucharist is concerned, it is never mentioned in scripture, and to say that Christ declares it in in the last supper, by Catechism standard makes a mockery of God and Christ.

The Lord left us His Church, "the pillar and foundation of truth," to not only write, canonize and preserve Scripture, but also to interpret it infallibly, lest Christians fall into error.

1 Corinthians 11

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [i.e., died].

[Aquinasfan]

the scorched theory isn't proven...not to mention the artist who did this already confessed.

You mean the medieval artist who painted with radiant energy? There is no pigment on the Shroud. At all. Of any kind. Anywhere on the Shroud. Repeating: there is no pigment on the Shroud. Is this too confusing?

not to mention the folds of sheet that wrapped around the face which can produce a negative 3d image,

It can?

if there was any un orthodox way of placing a sheet on anyone other than laying down on the face, no matter who it was please describe that technique, gravity works on everyone the same way.

Take a piece of paper towel and wrap it around a doll's head. Mark with a pencil the two ears and the two eyes. Now unfold the paper towel. The two eyes will be in the proper position but the sides of the head will also be facing forward. On the left you will see the left side of the head with the ear in the center, in the center you will have the face and on the right you will have the right side of the head with the ear in the center. The "face" will be three times wider than normal. This experiment has been done many times, and this is the constant result.

Now imagine a sheet placed over a body which emits a burst of energy. The sheet would be "scorched" in proportion to its distance from the body. Highpoints, like the nose, would produce a more intense image, thus producing an embedded 3D topographic image. This theory conforms perfectly with the actual image on the Shroud. This is why most scientists who have studied the Shroud believe that image on the Shroud originated in this way.

No different than taking a photo, which produces a negetive image

The concept of a negative image didn't exist until the 1800's, 700 years after the time when this image was allegedly forged.

This image would not contain an embedded 3D topographic map of a human body. - a 2 dimensional photo doesn't either.

Which is what makes the image all the more remarkable. I am a 3D computer artist, so I know how this works. If you import a grayscale image into a 3D program as a terrain map, the lightest areas become high points and the darkest areas become valleys. When the image was run through a NASA terrain analyzer in the mid '70s a virtual 3D image of a man resulted. How could a medeival forger do this?

[Aquinasfan]

Science and the Shroud (recent scientific discovery suggests that carbon-dating could be off by as much as 1000 years)

[Aquinasfan]

3D images of the Shroud of Turin (including the image created using the NASA VP-8 terrain analyzer)

[Aquinasfan]

Official Shroud Website

[happydogdesign]

The recent study by the Texas team was conducted on a linen sample allegedly taken from the lower right corner of the shroud. However, the Archbishop of Turin, Cardinal Giovanni Saldarini, has publicly challenged the sample's authenticity. He stated that both he and the Vatican "declare that they cannot recognize the results of the claimed experiments."

Nickell points out that, even if the sample did come from the shroud, its location was far away from any alleged "blood" stains. "This is suspicious in itself and raises serious questions," states Nickell. "The persons involved should promptly and fully clarify the source and location of all the samples allegedly removed from the shroud."

Walter McCrone, who has, he says, "examined thousands of fibers from 32 different areas of the 'Shroud,'" maintains that the fibers shown in the team's photomicrographs "did not come from the 'Shroud' of Turin."

The notion that contamination could alter the carbon date from the first to the fourteenth century is "ludicrous," McCrone says, adding: "A simple calculation shows that a weight of modern biological material necessary to raise the shroud date 1300 years would weigh twice as much as the shroud by itself."

http://www.csicop.org/articles/shroud/index.html