Wake the Bishops.org

http://wakethebishops.org/ ^ | 06.09.03

[sinkspur]

Strange enough that they all speak with one voice,

They do. If Massachusetts Catholics are going to re-elect a man who killed a woman, they're not going to think twice about voting for him over abortion.

And they haven't, as the last 30 years have proven.

[RightWhale]

they seem dead on the abortion issues

I don't think that is entirely accurate. They tend to work on the individual level. If a person is willing to talk to the chaplain, a lot of things can be straightened out. Unfortunately many these days don't talk to the chaplain or even go to church or whatever meeting place their flavor of religion offers. So they are missing out. The clergy is doing everything they can to the best of their ability to encourage people to swing on by and check it out, but it's a tough sell these days.

[Coleus]

You are talking about a priest with a one-on-one issue and that is his job, the salvation of souls. The Bishop represents the entire diocese contending with many moral issues in the public--including abortion. It's his job to repudiate the pro-abortion politicians and if you look at the website, they are "mandated" by the pope and their own writings to do so.

[Coleus]

You can sign the petition, it's a start
http://www.cathfam.org/cfexcom/Excom.html

No Catholic Politician can be excommunicated merely by voting for abortion. Those who "procure" an abortion are excommunicated.

[RightWhale]

That's right. I don't know much about bishops. The only one I ever heard was Sheen, and that was a long time ago, 50 years. I think he would have been out front on this issue. I am really disappointed with other preachers who have a large audience, people like Rev Jackson. He could do a lot of good on this. A lot of the TV preachers don't do the job either due to a lot of baggage.

I was just listening to the Michael Savage Show and he was getting downright erudite. He says that we don't have the kinds of leaders like philosophers, literary men, artists now that we used to. The man on the tiller has fallen asleep and fell overboard. He was an excellent sailer, but not the most alert person. We are adrift.

[narses]

Ping.

[Coleus]

I listen to Mike Savage all the time. And watch his show on sat.

[Thorondir]

No Catholic Politician can be excommunicated merely by voting for abortion.

This statement of yours stands in contradiction to Catholic faith. One does not need a formal declaration to excommunicate himself from the sacraments. Mortal sin does the trick quite nicely. Review your catechism. It is a mortal sin to support mortal sin.

[Thorondir]

Why am I so pissed all the time?

Re: When Priests Don't Run the Parish
From sinkspur | 05/19/2003 6:12 AM PDT replied

You seem to only crawl onto FR in the middle of the night, when most normal human beings are asleep.

If I do nothing but get under your very thin skin, then my sojourn on FR is complete. So, thanks for letting me know that I remain an irritant.

I will continue......

One could suppose it's because of your childish attitude as you emailed me above, but it's more because of the fact that you are an enemy of my Church.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the heads up!

[Coleus]

You are very wrong and provided no facts in your post and a Catholic is not excommunicated for committing a mortal sin, that's what confession is all about. I suspect that you are not Catholic. I do not need to review my Catechism, thank you.

Here is the Canon Law (notice the word "procures")

OFFENSES AGAINST HUMAN LIFE AND FREEDOM

Can. 1397 -- One who commits homicide or who fraudulently or forcibly kidnaps, detains, mutilates or seriously wounds a person is to be punished with the deprivations and prohibitions mentioned in can. 1336 in accord with the seriousness of the offense; however, homicide against the persons mentioned in can. 1370 is punished by the penalties specified there.

Can. 1398 -- A person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.

[The Latin original reads: Can. 1398 -- Qui abortum procurat, effectu secuto, in excommunicationem latae sententiae incurrit.]

An excommunication is the heaviest spiritual sanction the Church can render. So long as it is in force, it bars the excommunicated person from the church community and from receiving most of the sacraments, as well as from all public associations affiliated with the Church. An automatic (or "latae sententiae") excommunication is an especially severe penalty. The nine or so latae sententiae excommunications in the Code are reserved for use against certain things the Church particularly wants to deter, like assaulting the pope (can.1370) and priests divulging matters heard in the confessional (can.1388). Most excommunications can only follow a tribunal trial (can. 1425, §1, 2°). But latae sententiae penalties operate like a bill of attainder in that there is no "process" for their imposition--the fact that the person voluntarily performed the proscribed act, in the absence of some exception provided in the law, means the penalty is incurred. An excommunication can usually be lifted by the local bishop (the "local ordinary") and sometimes by a priest during confession (can. 1354-1357).


The canons of the 1917 and 1983 Codes apply to all direct abortions. Abortions incident to otherwise lawful medical care that is required to save the life of the mother (e.g. chemotherapy, hysterectomy of a cancerous uterus) are given an interpretive exception from the rule under the priciple of "double effect."

As in all penal laws there are qualifications as to who is subject to a law--Canon 1321, and following, of the 1983 Code makes such provisions.

Irregularity

From the earliest days of the Church, men who had shed human blood, no matter how justifiable or blameless the act may have been, were excluded from entering the priesthood (e.g., Decretum Gratiani by Pope Innocent I in the year 404). This traditionally embraced abortion as a form of homicide. However, in 1211, Pope Innocent III issued the decree Sicut ex, which limited the irregularity incurred from abortion to abortions involving a fetus that was not "animated" or "ensouled." This exception was subsequently abrogated as both of the modern codes have provisions that apply to all abortions (can. 985, §4 in the 1917 Code, and can.1041, 4° in the 1983 Code).

And the Catechism:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2270

[sinkspur]

One could suppose it's because of your childish attitude as you emailed me above, but it's more because of the fact that you are an enemy of my Church.

"Your" Church?

It's my Church too, though I know you despise me for claiming membership in it.

You're a very angry, vindictive man.

You should seek help. God can heal that bitterness, and He will if you just let it go.

[MHGinTN]

Why does this whole discussion remind me of the Pharisees in the times of Paul? Or even more, the time following the handing down of the Commandments and the subsequent Levitical Laws?

[sinkspur]

Let's stop the nastiness!

What's your response to my e-mail?

[Thorondir]

Oh, that's sweet! Take a nasty swipe at me in post 49 then call for me to stop.

I'm not stupid, and I gave up hit and run tactics like that when I left the sandbox behind me.

I will continue to stand up for the Church and for the unborn, whether you and your ilk like it or not.

[E.G.C.]

BTTT!!!!!

[Thorondir]

A person who committs a mortal sin is fallen from the state of grace and into the state of mortal sin and is not elligible to receive any sacrament but confession. He is out of communion with the Church. This is what I was talking about, not formal excommunication. That should have been made clear to you. And you know it is a mortal sin to assist or give consent to a mortal sin. What do you think voting for the murder of human children is if not consent to those mortal sins of murder?

[steve8714]

the actual final step would be for bishops to state that anyone who supported one of these candidates publicly would be denied the Sacraments. There are still a lot of Irish Catholic union leaders. Let's see if they are Catholic first, or Democrats.

[Petronski]

No, not all of them. Focus on the leaders first, trying to convert the masses.

I firmly believe the one nation that most needs Catholic missionaries is the United States.

[sinkspur]

I will continue to stand up for the Church and for the unborn, whether you and your ilk like it or not.

It must be nice to not be like the rest of men.