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"Fathers Count"
Mens News Daily ^ | June 7, 2003 | Isaiah Flair

Posted on 06/08/2003 1:04:53 AM PDT by Z in Oregon

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To: SauronOfMordor
Well, for every woman wanting to trade up story you have I can match it with a man who either cheats on his wife regularly (while she does not) or who left his wife and kids for another woman. When you cheat on your wife you are saying "i don't want you anymore" and when you cheat after you have kids you are saying "I don't love you enough to respect your mother while we are married." The same is true for women who cheat on men of course. That isn't justification for not letting either party take part in the kids life after divorce though. I am in total agreement with fathers having equal right to their children but I don't agree with the "divorce is all women's fault" thinking.
41 posted on 06/11/2003 12:51:20 PM PDT by honeygrl (sigh... i want hubby back home now. business trips suck.)
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To: BibChr
I think you made a great point.
42 posted on 06/11/2003 12:55:46 PM PDT by honeygrl (sigh... i want hubby back home now. business trips suck.)
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To: Z in Oregon
Do away with divorce entirely and substitute a duel to the death with the wife having the choice of weapons.
43 posted on 06/11/2003 12:59:01 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: longtermmemmory
I like the idea of mandatory visitation by whichever parent doesn't have main custody. Not a solution to the problem but it might help some with wives who don't want to see their ex around at all regardless of the children wanting to (which i'm sure is common) and men who just move on to another wife and start a new family like the old one never existed and ignore the children from the previous marraige (which I have seen before with friends' parents as a teen.) And if either parent is abusive or does drugs the visitation would have to be supervised or something like that. I'm not into the war on drugs, but if my spouse started doing crack he wouldn't be left alone with the kids.
44 posted on 06/11/2003 1:08:10 PM PDT by honeygrl (sigh... i want hubby back home now. business trips suck.)
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To: kancel
What makes both parents equally valuable is that they are *different* and like it or not some of those differences are most likely at least a little bit tied to the fact that they are different genders

You are exactly right and that also bothered me about the article. Fathers are not there to be deputy diaper changers (although I've been that). Each parent teaches different life skills. And it's not just for the boys. There is no substitute for the mutual love and admiration between a father and daughter. It's quite a responsibility because most likely she's going to be attracted to men who remind her of her dad.

45 posted on 06/11/2003 1:08:59 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Z in Oregon
This is not a well-reasoned article.

Husbands only initiate divorce in 25% of cases, and that may be even less when the marital union has produced children.

May be less? Doesn't he know? Aren't the statistics available? Or are they merely incovenient to his hypothesis?

Thus, the group of parents that is most likely to lose their children in the event of a divorce (fathers) are the ones most unlikely to intiate the divorce in the first place.

Bogus reasoning. Isn't it just as (or more?) likely that a lot of the men whose wives file for divorce are just plain SOBs? Or perhaps womens' behavior is less likely to cause men (we are by nature oblivious to a lot) to initiate divorce?

One could also presume that children might not be the underlying reasons for or against divorce, and may only delay the decision to file, but ultimately do not affect the rates at all.

Of course, without that crucial statistic -- which the kind author neglected to provide -- we cannot be sure if children have any effect on divorce rates.

46 posted on 06/11/2003 1:24:02 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: honeygrl
Thanks. Nice to know someone read it! (c;

Dan
47 posted on 06/11/2003 1:27:09 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: longtermmemmory
The Georgia supreme court has made it official that fundamental constitutional rights no longer exist. "Rights" only exist as legal entitlements granted at the whim of the legislature. That's got to go to the USSC. If they don't correct it, the US no longer exists as a formal political entity -- it's just some geography with some guys in charge.
48 posted on 06/12/2003 4:04:59 AM PDT by RogerFGay
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To: Z in Oregon
Did you notice Tom Sylvester's response? Sylvester is associated with the Institute for American Values; a socialist conservative organization that wants all church-goers and fiscal conservatives to support socialism without realizing it.
49 posted on 06/12/2003 4:10:06 AM PDT by RogerFGay
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To: Z in Oregon
You can go to The Heritage Foundation Website to see statistics on divorce and custody issues that back-up exactly what you have said.

Studies show that the single most important determining factor for most women who decide to file for no-fault divorce is the fact that she will most likely get full custody of the kids and the hubby will have to pay her without benefit of seeing his children on a regular basis.

The elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about is no-fault divorce. One selfish, self-centered person can destroy a family for no reason at all. No-fault needs to be done away with entirely because it is unconstitutional by its very application. Any person accused of a crime has the right to know what crime they have committed, they have the right to a jury trial, they have the right to the presumption of innocence, they have the right to put on a defense and expect the facts to determine the outcome. They are afforded every right the Constitution the grants a citizen of the United States of America. This is not so for the spouse sued under a no-fault statute. Ask what crime you have been accused of committing and the judge will only stare blankly at you and then grant the divorce.

Marriage has become the only contract where the law sides with the party wishing to violate the contract. Imagine what would happen if we let our courts handle business contracts in this same manner. We would have nothing short of chaos. Take a look at what has happened to our families under the system of no-fault divorce these last 30 years - it is absolute chaos! If we don't accept it in our business dealings, why do we accept it for our families?

In writing on divorce in America today, Dr. Stephen Baskerville, author and professor at Howard University says in his article, "The Politics of Family Destruction" in the November 2002 issue of Crisis magazine:

"Our present divorce system in not only unjust but fundamentally dishonest. For all the talk of a "divorce culture", it is not clear that most people today enter into the marriage contract with the intent of breaking it. If the marital vows were changed to ". . .until I grow tired of you" or ". . . for a period of 5 years unless I decide otherwise", and if the state were willing to sanction such an agreement, then divorce would not be such a significant event from a moral point of view. There is no evidence that the content of marital vows or expectations at the time of marriage has changed. The point is that the marriage contract has become unenforceable and therefore fraudulent. Until this changes, it seems pointless and even irresponsible to encourage young people to place their trust and lives in it. If we truly believe our present divorce policy is appropriate, we should at least have the honesty to tell young people up front that marriage provides them with no protection. Let's inform them at the time of their marriage that even if they remain faithful to their vows, they can lose their children, their home, their saving and future earnings, and their freedom. Not only will the government afford them no protection; it will prosecute them as criminals. And let us see how many young people are willing to start families. It is one thing to tolerate divorce, as perhaps we must do in a free society. It is quite another to use the power of the state to impose it on unwilling parents and children. When the courts stop dispensing justice, they must start dispensing injustice. There is no middle ground."

Divorce is a $250 BILLION per year industry that benefits only the people who administrate it. District family courts are the lowest level courts and have the least amount of oversight. This and fact that there are not juries present and in most instances, the courts are closed to the public results in antics on the part of the judges and attorneys that would in any other situation have them up on charges and disbarred.

The problem as I see it is that it's not just a "divorce issue", it's a due process issue. 80% of all divorces are contested by one of the parties. This means that 80% of the time a citizen is being denied due process under the law and we just sit back and tolerate it because it's considered a divorce issue. Kathlyn Smith President Marriage Our Mission

50 posted on 06/12/2003 9:43:18 AM PDT by texgal (end no-fault and return DUE PROCESS to our courts))
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To: texgal; Z in Oregon
Allan Carlson Calls for Rolling Back No-Fault Divorce at US Senate
51 posted on 06/13/2003 4:35:59 AM PDT by RogerFGay
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To: Z in Oregon
You know, if presumptive joint physical custody were legislated into being and enforced as binding upon the family courts (with allowable exceptions being specifically delineated and, where objected to by one divorcing spouse, subject to a strict scrutiny standard), divorce rates would plummet like a vulture shot out of the sky.

You know, if no fault divorce were legislated out of being, divorce rates would plummet. If men want to have any credibility on this subject, they should address the root of the problem.

Otherwise, they are rightfully accused of being whiners.

52 posted on 06/20/2003 3:49:07 PM PDT by independentmind
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To: BibChr
. First, the mere fact that most men don't initiate divorce does not mean necessarily that most men don't cause it.

An astute observation.

53 posted on 06/20/2003 3:51:15 PM PDT by independentmind
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To: independentmind; right2parent; IronJack; xm177e2; Lorianne; Orangedog; Nick Danger; RogerFGay; ...
You know, if no fault divorce were legislated out of being, divorce rates would plummet. If men want to have any credibility on this subject, they should address the root of the problem. Otherwise, they are rightfully accused of being whiners.

Any time fathers assert their right to parent, they are labelled "whiners"...by those who seek to shut them down, and to shutdown/divert the discussion of parental equality as well.

Custody and Cash are the twin roots of the divorce industry.

Cash has to be regarded as the secondary issue, because money is replaceable. Even so, the marriage contract should explicitly state the husband's and the wife's respective ownership interests in current and future assets, and those ownership interests should remain as delineated in the marriage contract in the event of a divorce.

Custody is the primary issue. A man's heart and soul is intertwined with his identity as a father. That fathers are robbed of their right to parent by family courts daily is the greatest crime against men and the human race ever committed by the U.S. government. Read Stephen Baskervilles "Divorce as Revolution" at

Regarding no-fault divorce, it is usually...incorrectly...put forth as "the root of the problem" by those who claim that the cause of high divorce rates is the "covenant marriage set": adultery, desertion, and domestic violence.

While I support covenant marriage laws, the primary reason that divorces are filed primarily by women is because under current family court practices, women are virtually guaranteed primary/sole custody of the couple's children.

54 posted on 06/22/2003 2:58:19 PM PDT by Z in Oregon (Fatherhood: the foundation of civilization (tied with motherhood))
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To: Z in Oregon
Stephen Baskerville's "Divorce as Revolution" is at MND

Oh, good, HTML that works.

55 posted on 06/22/2003 3:07:21 PM PDT by Z in Oregon
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To: Lorianne
Since so many marriages end up with kids and in divorce, maybe part of the pre-wedding plans should include an agreement between the couple on how they would like to see custody and visitation issues resolved in the event of divorce. That way they can decide when they're still civil with one another.
56 posted on 06/22/2003 3:20:24 PM PDT by FITZ
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To: independentmind
>>...You know, if no fault divorce were legislated out of being, divorce rates would plummet...<<

And domestic violence would increase.

There's got to be a "safety valve" out of abusive and hostile relationships.

57 posted on 06/22/2003 3:34:38 PM PDT by FReepaholic (Freepers, a fierce warlike tribe from FreeRepublic.com)
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To: Z in Oregon
That's why I believe RPJPC (Rebuttal Presumption of Joint Physical Custody) laws will eliminate this problem and provide incentive for BOTH parents to cooperate in the best interests of the children, whether married, divocing, or never married.

It seems odd to me that many of the most vocal Father's Rights advocates dwell on no-fault divorce instead of strongly advocating RPJPC.
58 posted on 06/22/2003 3:35:42 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: RogerFGay
Why is a Conservative calling for even greater government intervention in our private lives?

Who will determine "fault"?

How will adultury be proven?

What will keep married persons from committing adultury in order to get out of the marriage?

How will "fault" divorce laws keep people together in a family setting even if they stay married? Can't the parties just separate and live separately anyway? Or stay together and live separate lives including other relationships?

How does "fault" divorce address the interests of the many children born outside of marriage?

Why is it in the interest of government to coerce people who don't want to remain married, to remain married?

How does any of the is strengthen families? If anything I would think fewer people would get married under a fault-divorce set of circumstances.
59 posted on 06/22/2003 3:45:23 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: FITZ
We already have this option. It's called pre-nuptial agreement.
60 posted on 06/22/2003 3:46:31 PM PDT by Lorianne
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