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It's Time To Tell NASCAR How We Feel About Toyota
http://insiderracingnews.com/dt060403.html ^
Posted on 06/04/2003 9:45:23 AM PDT by Provost-Marshal
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To: Ben Hecks
Wow. I didn't realize they required pushrod engines and carbs in NASCAR. That's just stupid. What's the point is using obsolete stuff like that?
To: Palmetto; eBelasco; samuel_adams_us; Pukin Dog; billbears; Guillermo
Just the discussion to totally take my mind off the endless meetings I've had today...
Trying to compare F1 and NASCAR is like trying to compare ballet and break dancing. Both are great racing but the similarities end at the fact that each competitor has 4 tires and an engine. Technology, track design, physical demands placed on the drivers, not to mention the rule variations leave very little room for meaningful comparison.
While I'm not a great fan of oval racing the fact is that NASCAR is great afternoon entertainment. F1 is a very different animal and to truly enjoy it requires a significant investment of time and attention. Look, I'm an F1 psychotic, but then I'd probably watch insects race if it were televised. I track pre-season test times for every track and driver and do stats analysis on the results. The whole sport is about strategies and technology, and the rules Mosley brought in this year for qualifying have thrown an interesting monkey wrench into the mix due to the post-qualifying Parc Ferme regulation, which forces the teams to think carefully about their fuel strategy. NASCAR's a much more rough and tumble form of racing to be sure, but there's a competitive tension in F1 simply because the opportunities for overtaking and fewer pit stops leaves much less margin for error for each driver/team.
Both have their respective merits, as does CART, but the similarities end there.
Someone made a comment about the average speeds at Monaco. Irrelevant. The only reason they still race there is history and the fact that a lot of the drivers live there. It's a dangerous tight street course with little or no overtaking opportunity and the teams positively hate the pit/garage arrangement. For speed look at Hokkenheim or SPA, but unfortunately unless Belgium does something about their tobacco advertising rules we've seen the last race there we'll see. Pity.
Now, as for Michael. It would be interesting to see a shoot out with him and Senna but tragicallly we can't. Would Senna come out on top? Hard to say. Schumi is in better physical condition than Senna was and the tracks have changed due to safety considerations but that's not the whole story. One has to look at the knowledge base of the two. Recall where Michael came from. His dad was a dirt poor small engine mechanic in Kerpan who built his son a go cart with the hopes he'd develop an interest in engines and therefore learn a trade. Well, Michael became interested in engines, all right, specifically how fast he could make one go! The rest is history. The one major difference between him and every other driver is his almost mystical ability to read a car's performance on the fly and advise his team what needed to be changed. No other driver spends as much time actually working with his engineers and mechanics and actually helping to develop the car. A lot of F1 drivers basically show up at the track. Could other drivers today better him in the same car? Well, Alonzo seems to be coming along nicely and Kimi is proving to be a real talent. The Canuck in me wants to think that Jacques could give him a run for the money but JV is so darned hard on cars that he'd likely find a way to ruin Ferrari's reliability record. He's past his due date IMHO. As for Road Hazard Montoya it's a reason to open the champaign whenever he manages to finish a race without hitting anything.
The biggest complaint one could make about F1 is the disparity in team budgets which range from around 25 million for the Minardi's of the world to over 300 million for Ferrari and Toyota (remember them? That's what this thread started out being about!). If something doesn't give on the engine supply front this could be crippling to the sport in the medium term, but my faith is Max and rabbi Eccelstone will come up with something (saying no to bernie is a very bad strategy).
To all you NASCAR fans who have never been to an F1 race but otherwise love racing I highly recommend you give it a try, and by luck the Indy race in September is one of if not the least expensive F1 events on the calender, not to mention that the city puts a great face on for race weekend. Heck, the way the season's shaping up it may even be the deciding race for the championship this year. It's not the best F1 track on the tour but watching those cars come around turn 13 and in front of the main grandstand (turn 1 for you Indy 500 fans...the F1 cars go around the other way...and will run in the rain, BTW) and peel into the straightaway is one of the most beautiful sights in racing. There is simply nothing to compare to the passion and atmosphere of Formula 1 when seen live at the track.
Okay, typed long enough. In the words of the immortal Murray Walker, it's time to "GO GO GO!"
Cheers, eh!
162
posted on
06/04/2003 12:52:17 PM PDT
by
mitchbert
(Facts are Stubborn Things)
To: NYFriend
I care!
NASCAR (It is the "National Association of Stock Car Automobile Racing, after all!) ought to race only production based automobiles, IMHO.
Racem on Sunday, buyem on Monday! was what made NASCAR great, and the more they race these damned "homogenized, purpose built race cars," the less I like it. A private individual cannot buy a 750 hp FRont motor, rwd "Chevrolet," "Ford," "Chrysler," or "Pontiac" -- they are all special purpose race cars and bear no similarity to production automobiles, save the name.
I am willing to bet that the FRont wheel drive stock cars available to the general public can be developed to run at the 200 mph speeds we are used to, and their racing development would lead to better cars for the general public to boot.
I'm actually losing interest in NASCAR, because they race cars no one can watch on Sunday and buy on Monday.
NASCAR needs to revise its thinking on their "formula," IMHO.
HST, with a "stock, production car based formula," if Toyota or Mitsubishi or Mercedes wanted to race, and their cars were approved by NASCAR, letem race!
163
posted on
06/04/2003 12:57:27 PM PDT
by
Taxman
To: eBelasco
Chrysler is a foreign owned company. Aren't they involved in NASCAR?
164
posted on
06/04/2003 12:57:55 PM PDT
by
Guillermo
(Proud Infidel)
To: mitchbert
Someone made a comment about the average speeds at Monaco. Irrelevant.
Glad you caught that. I selected that course for comparison on purpose.
To: mitchbert
My point was that F1 has international appeal because they have drivers from almost every continent on earth.
For NASCAR to broaden its appeal to a huge Asian market by allowing Toyota to race, is a no-brainer.
Those who oppose this probably oppose NASCAR racing in non-Southern markets like Brookline, Dover and Las Vegas.
NASCAR became huge in this country because they focused themselves outside their traditional base. NASCAR is a business, and to whine because they want to expand is silly.
166
posted on
06/04/2003 1:02:46 PM PDT
by
Guillermo
(Proud Infidel)
To: Guillermo
Is Chrysler not one of the big three domestic automakers?
To: Guillermo
NASCAR is a business, and to whine because they want to expand is silly.
Right on. NASCAR is a business, and if it comes to include Toyota, Ferrari or whoever else, it ceases to be the NASCAR I care to watch.
To: eBelasco
Is Chrysler not one of the big three domestic automakers?Define "domestic automaker."
Is it a domestically-owned firm, or just somebody with a significant plant presence inside the US?
If it's the latter, then Chrysler and Toyota both qualify.
If it's the former, then Chrysler and Toyota are both disqualified.
169
posted on
06/04/2003 1:05:05 PM PDT
by
Poohbah
(Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
To: eBelasco
Why can't you answer a single question?
Is a Ford made is Mexico less, more or equally foreign than a Toyota made in Tennessee? How about a Volvo made in Sweden? Is that an American car (as Ford owns Volvo)?
Chrysler is part of the Daimler Group. Daimler is a German company.
170
posted on
06/04/2003 1:05:18 PM PDT
by
Guillermo
(Proud Infidel)
To: coder2
"I'm also thinking of putting him in a HUGE car for safety sake !!!"LOL, my kid's will have a big ol' (emphasis on "ol'") pickup with tires draped around it like a tugboat. "Have at it, guys!"
171
posted on
06/04/2003 1:05:44 PM PDT
by
Hatteras
(The Thundering Herd Of Turtles ROCK!)
To: Provost-Marshal
The first day a Toyota shows up at a Busch, or Cup Race, is the last day I EVER watch a Nascar race... for the remainder of my life!
172
posted on
06/04/2003 1:06:22 PM PDT
by
Duramaximus
( American Born, Gun_Toting , Aerospace Worker Living In A State That Worships Socialism)
To: eBelasco
Like I said earlier...they will probably lose a few fans over this, but the ones they will gain will outnumber the ones they lose.
173
posted on
06/04/2003 1:09:53 PM PDT
by
Guillermo
(Proud Infidel)
To: Provost-Marshal
they're just scared that toyota's are going to mop the floor with all the other manufacturers. it won't happen the first year but i will guarantee the toyo's will dominate the trucks and the busch/cup cars.
174
posted on
06/04/2003 1:11:15 PM PDT
by
rattrap
To: Guillermo; Poohbah
Why can't you answer a single question?
Is a Ford made is Mexico less, more or equally foreign than a Toyota made in Tennessee? How about a Volvo made in Sweden? Is that an American car (as Ford owns Volvo)?
How should I decide Guillermo? By total weight of metal? By weight alloy components based on national source of alloy component, by hours spent machining part * weight of metal / % domestic ownership of company that made the lathe? How about ethnicity of shareholders? You tell me. Then tell me I am incorrect when I give you an answer based on your criteria.
Right now, I'm saying that IMO, NASCAR is about the big three domestic automakers, as traditionally defined, racing. The return of the idea of "race on Sunday, buy on Monday" would be a nice (re)addition to the sport too.
To: Lee'sGhost
Except it caused major heart ache in japan. He was and is required to act japanese by his contract. Can you see us telling a group of japanese racers to act american?
To: Provost-Marshal
NASCAR is the least of my worries.
177
posted on
06/04/2003 1:13:27 PM PDT
by
philetus
(Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
To: Palmetto
Ford no longer offers any pushrod V8 enginesIncorrect. Ford Racing offers a whole line of complete warranteed pushrod crate motors, including a 514 ci/600 hp bracket racing setup.
http://www.fordracing.com/parts/search/results/index.asp
Similarly GM Performance offers a new 502 Rat stroker, and Mopar offers the monsterous 526 Hemi stroker (750+ hp).
Psst... don't tell the EPA...
To: Lockbox
"It's Time To Tell NASCAR How We Feel About Toyota"
OK. Toyota is probably the best car built in America. A few thousand people in Georgetown, Kentucky no doubt agree with me. Others are built in Indiana, a state with a great racing tradition, and more are built in California, perhaps the greatest car state in the nation.
Quality does not care where it gets its parts.
To: flyer182
"Can you see us telling a group of japanese racers to act american?"
At least it would be easier than vice versa. All they would have to do is say, "It's all about me me me me me me."
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