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Notes for free traders
TownHall.com ^ | March 04, 2003 | Paul Craig Roberts

Posted on 03/05/2003 12:24:33 PM PST by A. Pole

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To: Jhoffa_
I would think that raw Trade dollars are as meaningless as Sales dollars are in Retail..

You can do a million dollar day in retail and still be bankrupt if you don't have a margin to go with it.

The margin what you can actually pocket.. It's the profit and you can actually spend that.

The rest is just money being forked from one hand to the next. (Supplier, transport, warehousing & distribution... etc.)

???

21 posted on 03/05/2003 4:14:34 PM PST by Jhoffa_ ("HI, I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is FReepin' for Zot!")
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To: Jhoffa_
You're forgetting human nature. We would demand that other countries pay as much money as possible in return for as little deliverable product as possible--while simultaneously demanding that the other countries do just the opposite (sell us lots of stuff for as little money as possible).

You'd get the California power crisis (force electricity providers to buy high, then force them to sell low to customers), only this time it hits the international economy.

22 posted on 03/05/2003 4:17:41 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Poohbah
No, I am not talking about trade barriers..

I just wonder how the margin affects there raw trade dollar ammounts I see refrenced.. You know the "trade deficit" figure.

I wonder if and how the margin of these products plays into this. Because, obviously some products are much more profitable than others.

23 posted on 03/05/2003 4:22:44 PM PST by Jhoffa_ ("HI, I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is FReepin' for Zot!")
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To: Jhoffa_
The biggest problem is that the "trade deficit" excludes a lot of areas where the US leads, and overconcentrates on industrial goods.
24 posted on 03/05/2003 4:23:37 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Jhoffa_; Poohbah
Do you think that will work?

No, I don't agree with the premise that foreign nations should be forced to buy an equivalent amount of goods that we purchase from them.

Adam Smith's proposal for tariffs on imports was to compensate for other taxes placed on domestic production. So if domestic companies were paying 25% in taxes (Income Tax, Property Tax, Social Security Tax, etc. etc.), Foreign imports would be subject to a 25% tax. If the total on domestic producers was less (or more), the tariff would be lower or higher accordingly.

While I agree with this in principle, I also think the economy (and our domestic tax codes) is too complex for it to be practicle. Rather than trying to figure out seperate tariff rates for every commodity that may be imported, I would favor a flat rate revenue tariff applied to all imported goods.

25 posted on 03/05/2003 4:25:52 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: arete
ping
26 posted on 03/05/2003 4:27:59 PM PST by FreedomPoster (This Space Intentionally Blank)
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To: Willie Green
Of course, I'm in favor of a rather low tarriff--because I also favor low taxes on domestic production.
27 posted on 03/05/2003 4:28:21 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Willie Green
Can you see where I am coming from on this margin thing?

It's about the total value of goods as opposed to just dollar ammounts shipped back and forth.

How would this affect your outlook on global trade, if at all?

28 posted on 03/05/2003 4:29:47 PM PST by Jhoffa_ ("HI, I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is FReepin' for Zot!")
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To: Jhoffa_

In your hypothetical scenario, the second situtation may be more profitable for the company, but not necessarily for our economy, paid to the Chinese.

29 posted on 03/05/2003 4:42:38 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Poohbah
A man spends $4,800 at his local grocery store each year. Therefore, the grocery store should be required to purchase at least $4,800 worth of goods and services from that customer each year.

Do you think that will work?

Works just the way you drew it up.

If the customer who purchased $4,800 worth of goods from the grocer wishes to pay for his goods, than he'd better sell AT LEAST $4,800 worth to someone. More if he wants to buy something more, like a new car or dream vacation.

Similarly, the grocer will spend his $4,800 on more groceries to sell the customer, or customers. Hopefully, he'll buy, say, $5,000 worth, so he can buy a new car or take his dream vacation.

30 posted on 03/05/2003 4:45:25 PM PST by Cacophonous (I Corinthians 16:13-14)
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To: Cacophonous
If they both have a 50% (no, it's not 100%, and don't ask me why..) margin (they buy for half of the retail value) then both men will pocket $2400.00 from the transaction.

They can do this forever.

31 posted on 03/05/2003 4:51:58 PM PST by Jhoffa_ ("HI, I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is FReepin' for Zot!")
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To: Cacophonous
Works just the way you drew it up.

No, it doesn't.

If the customer who purchased $4,800 worth of goods from the grocer wishes to pay for his goods, than he'd better sell AT LEAST $4,800 worth to someone.

Ah, but like the idea that Country A must buy the exact same dollar amount of goods and services from the US as it sells to the US, I'm mandating that the grocery store must buy the goods and services in question.

32 posted on 03/05/2003 4:53:48 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: Jhoffa_
If they both have a 50% (no, it's not 100%, and don't ask me why..) margin (they buy for half of the retail value) then both men will pocket $2400.00 from the transaction.

They can do this forever.

Yeah, in an economy of two entities that might work. Realistically, it's be much less. The point is, grocery shelves don't stock themselves (else I'd own a grocery store).

33 posted on 03/05/2003 4:54:44 PM PST by Cacophonous (I Corinthians 16:13-14)
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To: Poohbah
LOL, well now you didn't stipulate that at the start. With the rule change, I agree with you.
34 posted on 03/05/2003 4:56:11 PM PST by Cacophonous (I Corinthians 16:13-14)
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To: Cacophonous

I was thinking of countries actually.

If it were individuals, it would never work because they have to re-invest all their profit to make the next purchase. Individuals have other expendatures also.

35 posted on 03/05/2003 4:57:01 PM PST by Jhoffa_ ("HI, I'm Johnny Knoxville and this is FReepin' for Zot!")
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To: Cacophonous
LOL, well now you didn't stipulate that at the start.

Yes, I did--please go back and read the original post. I mandated that the GROCER had to buy an equivalent dollar amount of goods and services from the customer.

36 posted on 03/05/2003 5:03:14 PM PST by Poohbah (Beware the fury of a patient man -- John Dryden)
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To: A. Pole
How long will foreigners accept an annual outpouring of $500 billion before they force a devaluation of the dollar?

In the case of most industrialized countries, indefinitely. (In the case of Japan, most certainly decades). The U.S. is the largest market for their goods, and it is unlikely that they would tolerate their currencies appreciating against the dollar. Moreover, our exporters are begging for the dollar to be devalued.

37 posted on 03/05/2003 5:41:30 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Willie Green
So if domestic companies were paying 25% in taxes (Income Tax, Property Tax, Social Security Tax, etc. etc.), Foreign imports would be subject to a 25% tax.

Not just the company because the American worker is taxed to support a Social Security program, and pays FICA, state and local taxes plus a large portion of our income goes to property taxes and other taxes to support government programs. When the American is out of a job, those programs still exist and fewer are left to pay for them, there's still free health care programs, public schools and all the rest that someone has to pay for. Before they justified taxes by saying those who benefit from the American economy must pay to provide for those who don't ---and now the Chinese and others are benefitting by having jobs so they should also pay for our Socialist programs. Unless we end those.

38 posted on 03/05/2003 6:15:38 PM PST by FITZ
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To: A. Pole
Hey, A. Pole, thanks for the ping.

You want fries with that??

"US Jobs to become service oriented and will require face-to-face interaction with 'clients'"

39 posted on 03/05/2003 7:01:12 PM PST by bwteim (IMHO)
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To: Poohbah
A man spends $4,800 at his local grocery store each year. Therefore, the grocery store should be required to purchase at least $4,800 worth of goods and services from that customer each year.

Good analogy. Here's another:

If I find someone to do my yardwork for $8 an hour (because that's what he's willing to work for), should I require him to buy equivalent dollar amounts of my software services (at my higher hourly rate)? No, he'd rather take the money and buy food or pay rent or whatever -- it's his business. Should there be a law requiring me to do my own yard work? No, because I can contribute more to myself and the economy by doing software (at say, $50 an hour) than doing the yard work.

If a Chinese company is willing to manufacture toys for 20 cents on the dollar, should I require that they buy expensive U.S. goods with their money, or should I let them make their own spending decisions?

I say, let them decide what they want to do with their 20 cents. Meanwhile, I have 80 cents in savings that I can do something with. I might just buy four more toys and have some fun (this is probably what a lot of Americans are doing). Or I might buy some Vietnamese software at 20 cents on the dollar so I can improve my own productivity and make myself more competitive. Or I might invest my savings in education and training to the same end. Or I might invest my savings in a company (foreign or domestic) so that other people will work to provide me with a stream of income.

In general, I can choose to put my savings to productive use or I can just enjoy myself. My guess is that at a macroeconomic level, "too many" Americans are just enjoying themselves rather than investing wisely.

Why? Could government incentives to spend (e.g., tax deductibility of mortgage interest) and government disincentives to invest (e.g, taxation of dividends and the alternative minimum tax) have something to do with it?

40 posted on 03/05/2003 9:48:50 PM PST by AZLiberty
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