At least 96 dead in nightclub fire

CNN | 2/21/03

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Our local news just said the owners of The Station "are in the hot seat" (interesting copy writing there...sometimes I wonder about people in newsrooms) - reporter said they were not answering questions from the state AG's office.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Very helpful and informative - thank you.

[Japedo]

I'm getting the same thing here.

WEST WARWICK, R.I. -- A day after family members visited the charred site of a deadly nightclub fire, the state attorney general said the nightclub owners have not answered questions from investigators about the blaze that killed at least 97 people.

State Attorney General Patrick Lynch said Monday that Jeffrey Derderian has not answered questions since Thursday night when The Station, which he owns with his brother, burned to the ground. He said Michael Derderian has never answered questions.

"There are questions I believe they could assist us with if they answered," he said on CBS' "The Early Show."

Lynch said the band Great White, which has returned to Los Angeles without guitarist Ty Longley, missing since the blaze, has been cooperative

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/24/ag_fire.htm

[meyer]

Thanks for the informative posts! Whatever it was, that sound-absorbing "packing" foam certainly was extremely flammable. In fact, I'm almost certain that it was just that - packing foam.

I wonder, if other bands had used pyro (and I haven't seen that yet, but some state that it is true), if that foam wasn't up for any of the pyro shows until this incident.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

Well, well, well...

So the "slime" musicians are cooperating with the AG, but the fine, upstanding club owners (I choked on that, by the way) aren't forthcoming.

Why, I'm shocked! </ sarcasm>

[meyer]

Hopefully the videos from this tragedy will encourage people to appreciate just how flammable some things are.

I think that the video will be used as part of many fire-prevention training program for many years. Its had a large impact on me; that's for certain.

[Lady Jag]

I saw part of Rita's show and the lawyer interview and with each bit if news makes it look like this is going to keep getting nastier.

Thank you for you thoughts and help.

[supercat]

So the "slime" musicians are cooperating with the AG, but the fine, upstanding club owners (I choked on that, by the way) aren't forthcoming.

The musicians used pyro in an illegal and unsafe manner. The club owner covered the back wall of the stage with extremely flammable material in an illegal and unsafe manner. Had not both of these things been done, 90+ people would most likely still be alive.

If there has been a long history of bands at many venues using unapproved gerbs without any loss of life, and without many significant incidents, that would suggest that Great White's use of same may have been illegal and unsafe but not reached the point of recklessness. The use of packing foam along the rear wall of the stage, however, would have posed a danger even if gerbs had not been used, since an electrical short or idly-tossed cigarette could have had the same result.

[Japedo]

The musicians used pyro in an illegal and unsafe manner

From what I understand it is "The Stations" responsibility to get said Permits, Not the bands. That info is posted on this thread some place.

That being said, Why is it Great White is cooperating fully with Investigators and the Owners have yet to address questions?

More over, What of all the "other bands" 6 named so far (in the last two months) that had stronger Pyros then what Great White used? Did they have Permits? One of the bands was captured on Film inside the Station. I find it VERY hard to believe that it was GW that was totally Irrespirable, after all the business owners Know their place better then a band that stops by for one night to play a gig. IMO

Something about the owners just isn't sitting right with me, I will however continue to keep watching the story.

Again supercat, Thank you for posting such detailed info!! :)

[meyer]

The musicians used pyro in an illegal and unsafe manner. The club owner covered the back wall of the stage with extremely flammable material in an illegal and unsafe manner. Had not both of these things been done, 90+ people would most likely still be alive.

Yes, there's plenty of blame to cover both parties IMHO. We can't forget that the crowd size is likely to have exceeded the maximum occupancy limit of the building (and this is very common in bars and clubs). And, I suspect that there's a ton of clubs out there with many violations.

Part of the problem is that some regulations are viewed as excessive (and indeed there probably are some excessive regulations designed for other purposes besides safety). And, clubs and bands have probably gotten away with more dangerous activities over the years without incident, thus increasing complacency.

If there has been a long history of bands at many venues using unapproved gerbs without any loss of life, and without many significant incidents, that would suggest that Great White's use of same may have been illegal and unsafe but not reached the point of recklessness. The use of packing foam along the rear wall of the stage, however, would have posed a danger even if gerbs had not been used, since an electrical short or idly-tossed cigarette could have had the same result.

I agree - if the relatively benign sparks from the pyro device caused ignition, many other activities could have done the same. I wonder if flammability even dawned on the club owners or their agents when they installed this foam. My guess is that the idea never crossed anybody's mind.

[Japedo]

Irrespirable = Irresponsible, The things I miss proof reading, I'm sorry!

[Lady Jag]

From the band interviews I have seen so far, they all say the egg crate material wasn't there when they used pyros. Someone said it was put up only recently, so GW might have been the first band to play with that backing.

I just heard on local TV that their dad ran the club for many years before the two sons bought him out.

[Japedo]

Hmmm... I dunno know Science... That could very well be the case.. however today's B.G. say's that it hung there for years? I dunno how accurate this is, could be more conflicting stories to deal with? Article goes as follows:

Soundproofing said to hang in club for years


By Sarah Schweitzer and Christopher Rowland, Globe Staff, 2/24/2003

EST WARWICK, R.I. - The soundproofing foam that is a focus of the inquiry into the blaze that killed 97 people had hung on the walls of The Station nightclub for years, witnesses said yesterday, and had deteriorated into what one described as a dry, flaky substance.
A sound engineer who frequently visited the club said he had seen the walls covered with the egg-carton-shaped foam, which specialists say is highly flammable if not treated with fire retardant. And a musician who played at the club said the alcove behind the performing area - where the drummer sat and where the fire apparently caught fastest - was encased by the soundproofing.

If the presence of the foam is determined to have contributed to the intensity of the inferno that consumed the building, the timing of the installation could help officials assess responsibility for the tragedy.

In a measure of concern here, officials announced at a press conference yesterday that the state has banned all pyrotechnic devices in any club or theater that seats fewer than 300. In addition, they said inspectors will fan out across the state to inspect all nightclubs and theaters to eliminate hazardous conditions - including any foam considered flammable.

Attempts to deflect responsibility came from all quarters yesterday.

A lawyer for the building owner, Triton Realty Limited Partnership, said he had no knowledge of the foam's installation, and added that the building met all fire codes at its most recent lease signing, in March 2000. An attorney for the lessors, Jeff and Michael Derderian, did not return phone calls yesterday.

The West Warwick Town Council held an emergency executive session to discuss how to handle possible lawsuits against the municipality. ''They are going to blame the town for not doing this and not doing that, even if it's superfluous,'' said Bernard Magiera, the council president. ''They would hang their hat on a toothpick.''

Meanwhile, the state fire marshal declined to comment on the building's soundproofing, saying it is one of many factors under investigation. Records from the most recent annual fire department inspection in December make no note of concern about the building's insulation.

But Governor Donald Carcieri continued yesterday to question whether the soundproofing should have been installed at all.

''I want to understand as soon as possible what insulating material is there, because as I understand it, there are different kinds,'' he said. ''Some of it is like gasoline - you put a match to it and `baboom.' If that's what was in there, why the hell was it in there? ''

Rhode Island officials declined to comment yesterday on specifics of the investigation, which Attorney General Patrick Lynch has said may include a grand jury probe. But state law enforcement officials voiced irritation with some who they believe may hold vital information about the cause of the blaze, with Lynch singling out the Derderians.

''The question of whether they have been cooperative is something you can ask them,'' he said. ''We have questions we would enjoy them responding to - maybe they just haven't had the opportunity. I am hopeful they will take the opportunity to respond.''

Another focus of the inquiry is who should have secured authorization for the band Great White to use pyrotechnics, which sparked the blaze. State and local officials said no permits were applied for or granted. The band has said the Derderians granted permission; the brothers have denied that. An attorney for the band, Edwin McPherson, said yesterday that other bands had stepped forward to say that they, too, had used pyrotechnics at the club. Triton's attorney, Daniel P. McKiernan, however, said his client ''had absolutely no knowledge of any pyrotechnics in the building.''

Police and the attorney general's office pressed the building's owner yesterday for details on the timing of the foam's installation, its composition, and its upkeep.

McKiernan said Triton was still trying to learn yesterday what material covered the walls and whether it had been added since the Derderians began leasing the building. McKiernan said he expected to provide more details within 48 hours, adding that Triton had not been alerted if the club operators did add the insulation.

Neighbors of The Station, including Stephen Mattias, whose home is behind the club, said the Derderians had talked to residents about the noise issue. ''Jeff and Mike introduced themselves as the new owners,'' Mattias said. ''They explained to us they were going to try to keep the noise down.... These guys were honest and truly sincere about noise pollution.''

Tim Ford, a fomer manager at The Station, said Friday that the Derderians added some insulation two or three years ago after neighbors complained about the late-night noise. Though a couple of neighbors said the noise problems appeared to lessen, the issue was a longstanding one for the club.

Sean Sands, the owner of Rattlehead Records in Cranston, R.I., said he had handled sound production for seven shows and recorded six albums at The Station over the past decade. Sands said the walls had long been insulated with foam, which was originally black and had faded to brown. ''It was very dry and crumbly and it was old,'' he said. ''When I went up there to hang mikes, it was crumbling in my hands and I remember wondering if this thing is flammable.''

Art Faccio, who plays in a Def Leppard tribute band, Hysteria, said the foam had hung since the club began hosting bands more than a decade ago, during the years neighbors complained about noise. ''There's been foam on the walls for as long as I can remember,'' he said.

Faccio said the stage and walls were coated in the insulation, though the ceiling was not because of lighting. He said an alcove that had been added onto the stage for the drummer was the most heavily insulated area in the club and was ''totally encompassed in foam.''

Ed Kelly, president of Bryant Construction, which was hired to make repairs to the club's front wall, knows the Derderians and said they had struggled in recent years to secure funding from the building's owner for upkeep. He said Triton had balked at providing money for a leaky roof. ''Any funds they put in had to come out of their pocket,'' Kelly said.

The attorney for Triton said yesterday that the roof had been repaired and declined to comment on whether the relationship between Triton and the Derderians was amicable. He also declined to make available the lease contract, a document that could be pivotal in determining possible liability.

Such agreements can vary widely in terms of how much control the landlord maintains over minor building improvements, said Christopher Donovan, a Boston lawyer who specializes in real estate. Often, he said, in the case of specialty businesses such as a nightclub, the tenant will have greater say - and bear greater responsibility - for changes to the property.

Beth Healy and Diane E. Lewis of the Globe Staff, and Globe Staff correspondent Jenn Abelson contributed to this report.

This story ran on page A1 of the Boston Globe on 2/24/2003.
© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

Source: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/055/metro/Soundproofing_said_to_hang_in_club_for_years+.shtml

[bvw]

ALmost like nitro-celluose sounds like -- the urethane had decayed from heat and maybe UV-lights -- the brown color means nitrates/trites.

[Japedo]

the brown color means nitrates/trites

Is this a red Flag to inspectors? (The brown color?) If so, My question is, why was this allowed to pass Fire Inspection (Dec. 2002) if this is what this means?

[bvw]

I'm not an inspector -- some friends and relatives are, not me. I'm aghast they didn't require sprinklers in a timber-frame club that held so many people, at the layout of exits, etc. Looks pretty sleazy, a suggestion, perhaps that inspectors are incompetent or on the take -- and certainly that the town should have had higher standards.

[meyer]

ALmost like nitro-celluose sounds like -- the urethane had decayed from heat and maybe UV-lights -- the brown color means nitrates/trites.

I don't purport to know the science of it, but if its dry and flakey, its old and probably very flammable. That's my layman's point of view. As for the brown color, that could also be cigarette smoke stain. You wouldn't beleive (or maybe you would) how thick that nicotine stain gets in a bar, especially if it has minimal air filtration.

[bvw]

Could be that -- surely there's some of the stuff left -- even after the inferno. Be interesting to find out, if and when.

[meyer]

I'm not an inspector -- some friends and relatives are, not me. I'm aghast they didn't require sprinklers in a timber-frame club that held so many people, at the layout of exits, etc. Looks pretty sleazy, a suggestion, perhaps that inspectors are incompetent or on the take -- and certainly that the town should have had higher standards.

Depending on the locale, inspectors may overlook a few or many violations. This is particularly true if you grease them with a few bottles of liquor (in some jurisdictions). In some cases, its incompetence, in others, its just understanding that some bar owners would become destitute if they had to fix all the violations that could be cited. Even in such a case, the inspector would be interested in dealing with the more hazardous situations.

One would think that this foam issue would seem to be a biggie, but it may well have gone unnoticed. Inspectors tend to look for fire extinguishers, lit exit signs, emergency lighting, exposed wiring, and junk stacked in front of the door. I'm not sure that they would be inclined to inspect wall coverings in an established emporium. I'd bet they will be now.

[Richard Kimball]

Is the concern with the fire ratings that restaurants may sometimes stack all the tables and chairs together at a time when they are open to the public?

No, and I only mentioned it to give you an idea of the total fire load tables and chairs can create in even a normal sized restaurant. When figuring the fire load, furniture, wall coverings, curtains, etc. are all taken into account.

My philosophy is that there are often many ways to make a particular premesis safe, and codes should be flexible enough to allow safety to be achieved at the lowest possible cost.

Ideally, this is how the situation would work. Many codes will allow more flammable material if a functioning sprinkler system is in place, for example. Also, Assembly type occupancies have different requirements depending on the occupant load. Most of the standard codes, like the Uniform Fire Code, NFPA 101, the Standard Building Code, etc., are anywhere from 600 to over a thousand pages long. Much of the length is to allow several different methods of meeting goals of the code.

For example, in Class A (assembly occupancies), there must be a designated occupant load of over 50 before anything other than standard business codes come into play. The requirements change as the occupant load goes up, with big changes at over 300 people, and again over 1,000.

As to pyrotechnic displays, the system you suggest would probably mostly be used by competitors to try and shut down businesses. The biggest problem with clubs is they tend to fly under radar. Great White doesn't (or didn't) really care about what the fire marshal said because they planned to be in another city the next night.

FWIW, most fire codes weren't just "thunk up." The majority of them are written in blood. Exit door access goes back to two fires, the Iroquois Theatre fire, and the Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire. Flammable decorations weren't seriously considered until the Cocoanut Grove fire.