A New Tactic Against War: Renew Talk About Draft

New York Times ^ | 2/08/03 | CARL HULSE

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

True- but then, whenever and wherever there has been conscription, men have found ways to avoid it (from paying their way out to shooting off their toes). I have no doubt that this sort of thing was widespread even in some of the cultures we consider to have plenty of martial virtue- like Sparta, or the Plains Indians. Cowardice is a VERY common human frailty.

Someone should write a book on this...

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"... it's about creating protests in the streets by motivating teens/college students to protest against a war that will now "involve" them."

weegee, I do believe that you have put this thread to bed. You are exactly right, of course, and I have nothing to add.

[Archangelsk]

That stuff is all Government propaganda. The sons of the rich or politically well-connected did not serve, and the few who did (like Al Gore) got cushy billets with less risk than they would have have experienced at a fraternity kegger! (Or they got a nice slot in the National Guard...)

This sounds like an indictment of not only Al Gore and Lloyd Bentsen but also the President and Dan Quayle. Sorry, Ranger, but you can't have it both ways.

[Redleg Duke]

I don't think it was quite that way. For those of us who joined the Guard prior to the Viet Nam War, for patriotic reasons, there were plenty of slots open and lots of grief given to us by our "cooler" classmates for "throwing away the best six years of our lives". I went to basic in the summer of 1965, leaving an infantry unit at about 65% strength. I returned to a unit full up, with my classmates begging me to get them in.

In Wisconsin, it was "first come, first served". This crap about "political influence" is overblown and used frequently to discredit political oponents. Many men and women served honorably in the National Guard. I find it ironic that the guys who were drafted, did two years in Germany or Fort Dix, New Jersey, and then got out to serve two years in a reserve or guard unit still looked down on those of us who spent the full six years in the Guard. Some of us ended up spending a little more time, say thirty-two years...not to avoid the draft...but because it was the right thing to do.

Criticize the politicos all you want, but don't tar us regular folks with the same brush. We may not have all the merit badges, but we served.

[MarkDel]

I mean no disrespect to you if you're a Vietnam veteran, but I based my feeling on the very unscientific method of personally speaking to vets of World War II and Vietnam. I have yet to personally meet a World War II vet who was drafted, or one who talked disparagingly of the military. Sadly, I have met many, many Vietnam veterans who were unwilling draftees who bitch constantly of the military. Now as the author of "Stolen Valor" has often pointed out, many of the so-called "Vietnam Vets" were not really vets.

Also, I have researched the "numbers" and they definitely point to you being right in your assertion...it's just that my personal experience with veterans from the two wars has been very different.

[Archangelsk]

Now as the author of "Stolen Valor" has often pointed out, many of the so-called "Vietnam Vets" were not really vets.

A great point and an excellent book. I'm sure you were ready to throw an apopletic fit when you read the sections about how the VA has scammed billions of dollars of tax payer money for these "veterans".

Go to the web site for more information.

[TrappedInLiberalHell]

The Rats don't try to motivate this country together, they seek to divide this nation by pitting one group against another.

So in other words, the left longs for the good old days of Viet Nam, when wars were REALLY unpopular and bloody. They must have HATED the Gulf War, when we lost fewer than 200 soldiers. And they certainly were disappointed that Afghanistan wasn't remotely the 'quagmire' they had warned (read: secretly hoped) it would be. I sometimes wonder if liberals aren't really happy unless they have something to be morally indignant about.

[Archangelsk]

Afghanistan wasn't remotely the 'quagmire'

I have several friends there, they remind me that the Soviets had an easy time during their first year there. Things are not what they seem.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

I was not going to post again on this thread, but I think you deserve a response.

My problem is not with those who served (honorably) in the Guard before or after Vietnam, but with the many thousands who used the NG as a convenient escape hatch to keep their lilly-white asses from being shot off. The VAST majority of these folks were from families with political connections, and/or financial resources. No-one wants to deal with this now, and we are ALL "veterans"- but some of us know better, and we have not forgotten the smugness of the National Guardsman doing his little "ACDUTRA", with zero risk of being sent overseas.

In partial answer to another poster, yes, I include ALL of the current politicians who used this escape hatch to avoid Vietnam. I am not trying to "have it both ways". All I can say is that Clinton was much, much worse!

By the way, the role of the Army Reserve and the National Guard is dramatically different now- and deserving of a LOT of respect!

[TrappedInLiberalHell]

This sounds like an indictment of not only Al Gore and Lloyd Bentsen but also the President and Dan Quayle. Sorry, Ranger, but you can't have it both ways.

In my mind it depends somewhat on how these people characterized their service. I seem to recall Al Gore bragging about his 'service', which by most accounts was cushy, preferential, and nowhere near combat. I don't know if President Bush would have the nerve to equate his time in the Guard with soldiers who enlisted in the regular army.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

Oh, by the way, we had 12 million men under arms in WW II. Do you really believe that they were ALL volunteers? Ask your WW II veteran buddies for their DD 214's- I am willing to bet that the majority will have "US" service numbers (draftees).

[TrappedInLiberalHell]

I have several friends there, they remind me that the Soviets had an easy time during their first year there. Things are not what they seem.

I yield to your expertise in the matter. But it does seem to me that the left didn't think our forces would have done nearly as well as they have to date. I'd be interested in what you have to tell about what it's like there. Are there any threads you post to that talk about it? I admit I haven't paid much attention to the Afghanistan situation lately.

[11th Earl of Mar]

I have the solution. Only draft Democrats.

[MarkDel]

Ranger,

I'm somewhat confused, was your post aimed at me? I don't believe I made any points about the National Guard...you must have been talking to someone else.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

"I have yet to personally meet a World War II vet who was drafted,..."

Some of them are lying. Sorry to break it to you like this.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

Yes, I apologize. I was trying to answer RedLegDuke and you at the same time, and it didn't really come out very well.

[Archangelsk]

Are there any threads you post to that talk about it? I admit I haven't paid much attention to the Afghanistan situation lately.

I asked if I could post some of the e-mails I've received and was politely asked not to. Suffice to say that there are some issues that are not being reported.

[MarkDel]

Ranger,

Calm down...if you noticed I said at the end of my initial response that I was aware the numbers substantiated your claims. In fact, I know the exact numbers. Roughly 52 percent of all World War II veterans were draftees, while roughly 25 percent of all Vietnam veterans were draftees. There were fewer than 12,000 draftees killed in the Vietnam War...I'm well aware of the real numbers.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

OK, I'm calming down (actually, if you thought I was agitated, you must not have been reading my posts on various topics over the past couple of years! When I am agitated, I skirt very close to being banned for life from FR...))

We have no argument, and if I should run into you at the VFW or the American Legion, I will buy you a beer!

[MarkDel]

Yes, it's possible that some of them are lying. I guess I'm guilty of a bias because I tend to like most of the World War II generation people, while I'm not too enamored of the entire Baby Boomer generation. I know that sounds foolish, but every time I think of the influence of the Baby Boomer generation on our culture...

Again, I certainly meant no disrespect to any Vietnam veterans as I would never do anything to disrespect the brave souls who wear the uniforms of this nation.