White House Floats Idea of Dropping Income Tax (altogether)

New York Times, Business and Financial Desk, Page 14, Column 5 ^ | 2/8/2003 | EDMUND L. ANDREWS

[Taxman]

Spoken like a True Libertarian.

First things first, my FRiend.

If you would apply your considerable talents and skills (I am a fan -- you express youreself quite well) to helping us abolish the income tax and the IRS, we could then turn our attention to abolishing those unconstitutional laws which enable the numerous federal bureaus and agencies to so muck up our lives.

Once we get rid of them, then the NRST rate will be, of necessity (the government will not need to spend so much money -- GASP!) be reduced to under 10%.

We can eat this elephant, but we have to do it one bite at a time.

[Dick Bachert]

Yeah -- just like THEY CHANGED THE RULES IN 1913 WHEN THEY SADDLED OUR GRANDPARENTS WITH THE DAMNED THING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Billy_bob_bob's motto: "HOORAY FOR ME! SCREW YOU!"

IF YOU WANT THIS MAN – AND MEN LIKE HIM – TO REMAIN IN CONTROL OF YOUR ECONOMIC AND PERSONAL DESTINY, CONTINUE TO TOLERATE THE CURRENT MARXIST INCOME TAX SYSTEM.

ONE MORE TIME:

IT’S ABOUT

P O W E R AND C O N T R O L!!

SIGN THE PETITION AT HTTP://WWW.VOTR.ORG. Then find out how you can do more to end America’s peculiar SPRING MADNESS.

[Dick Bachert]

...and how about getting some -- you know -- actual FACTS together about the NRST PROPOSAL BEFORE spouting off?

http://www.salestax.org is a good place to start.

[Taxman]

Are you for us or agin' us?

[Teacher317]

chief negotiator bump

[Taxman]

You may be right, but I sure hope you are not.

Instead of trying to justify the rampant deception and corruption inherent in our present tax code and suggesting that we can't scrap the damn thing because of the way the political winds blow in WDC, why don't you help us work against that mind set?

If a consumed income tax is the best we can do, we are doomed. And if we are doomed, I'd a Hellofalot rather go down working diligently for real tax reform, i.e., replacing the income tax with a National Retail Sales Tax than throwing my hands up in the air and say that there is nothing that can be done.

We can do this, you know. After all, we outnumber the politicians who would keep us enslaved! There are 280 million of us, and we have the power to force them to our will, if we want to!

But, we have to want to, and we have to work at it.

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” [Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800.]

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

Click here to help us scrap the Code, scrap the IRS and abolish the VLWC!

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

You can also click here to sign a petition in support of Fundamental Tax Replacement.

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

[Taxman]

Please see post #526.

[Taxman]

NO!

George W. Bush will become America's most successful and most famous President, ever, if he succeeds in replacing the income tax with a National Retail Sales Tax and abolishing the income tax.

We must help him!

“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” [Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800.]

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

Click here to help us scrap the Code, scrap the IRS and abolish the VLWC!

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

You can also click here to sign a petition in support of Fundamental Tax Replacement.

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.

[Taxman]

YESSSSSS!!!

[Taxman]

Yup, 'tis true.

Click here and type "H.R. 25" in the Bill Number search box.

All you ever wanted to know about the Fair Tax can be found right there. You can even read the actual legislation, and it is written to be easy for "laymen" to understand!

[Badray]

You'll notice that he hasn't responded to my question. But interestingly enough, the more that I have done battle with the IRS, the less fear I have of them. LOL. But for everyone else, I realize that it can be a terrifying experience and we should not have to live in fear of the government. They should fear us.

[Badray]

"I didn't learn anything Saturday night except that MAF wears nice perfume!"

And you're gonna tell me that that wasn't a good thing to learn? And enjoy? I might still be driving around under those circumstances. hehehehe (With all due respect, MAF) ;-)

[Dick Bachert]

Dude, I may have gotten you confused with another poster "Congressman Billybob" as best I recall who purports to be a member of the gang of 435 (Congress) and routinely posts nonsense about how wonderful gimmint is.

Putting that -- and your clear SELF-INTEREST (HOW STATESMANLIKE OF YOU!) -- aside, try giving me a rational reason to oppose the NRST REPLACEMENT for the income tax.

BTE, we just love it when you talk dirty.

[Billy_bob_bob]

I apologize for my previous outburst. It just hit me the wrong way at the wrong time. First, let me say my primary objection to any twiddling with the tax code is that every time they purport to do something to improve it, they make it worse. Second, I've already paid about %50 taxes on everything I've managed to earn in my life, now I'm supposed to pay even more taxes when I go to spend what I've managed to hang onto?

If you check up on this thread you'll find that I'm willing to consider the notion of a NRST, but there are serious concerns that need to be addressed, including the concerns of retirees and people halfway through their careers. How is this going to impact them?

Also, at one point I invited Wille Green to post a summation of his objections to the NRST, which he was kind enough to do. His summation included some very reasonable concerns.

If you want to reduce the size of the government, fine by me. Fire the IRS, wonderful, go for it. Just please don't come up with a scheme where you plan to have the government stick the vacuum nozzle up my bank account and hoover out even more of my savings when they already got HALF while I was earning it in the first place. Alright?

[Taxman]

It is a modest savings, but consider that this: Under a NRST, all the state taxes you pay will be paid with funds that have not yet been taxed.

For example, in the progressive income tax scheme of things, if you are in the 15% marginal income tax bracket, to pay $2,000 in state income, sales, property taxes over the course of a year, you'd have to earn $2,353.00.

Of course, if your marginal federal income tax bracket is one of the higher ones, you have to earn even more than $2,353.00 to pay your state taxes.

[Here is the math: 1-.15x=1.00, where .15=marginal tax rate and 1.00 = an after tax dollar; therefore 1.00/.85 = $1.17647 you have to earn before taxes to have $1.00 left after taxes. This formula can be applied to all tax rates, e.g. , if you are in the 27% marginal tax bracket (the next bracket above 15% for 2002), you would have to earn $1.3698 to have $1.00 left after taxes. If you are in the 38.6% tax bracket, you have to earn $1.6286 to have $1.00 left after taxes!]

[These figures only account for federal income taxes. To factor in SS and Medicare taxes, add 7.65 to your marginal tax bracket, which will establish your REAL marginal tax bracket. If you are self employed it is your marginal tax bracket + 15.3. For example, in our situation above, the 15% marginal tax bracket is really 22.65%, so to have $1.00 after taxes, our hypothetical "15%" taxpayer really needs to earn $1.2928. You do the math for the other examples.]

[Many Americans pay more in SS and Medicare taxes than they do in income taxes.]

[There are, BTW, seven federal income tax rates: 0, 10, 15, 27, 30, 35, & 38.6 per cent. And, there is a variable rate negative income tax; the earned income tax credit rebate percentage varies with family size and earned income.]

Under the NRST, in the 15% marginal tax bracket, you would be $353.00 better off, just in respect of state taxes. And, of course, if your marginal tax bracket is 27% or higher, you have to earn even more to pay your state and local taxes.

Do the math. With and without SS and Medicare taxes. Might get your attention if you really knew how much you are paying in taxes and how much you must earn to have just to have one lousy buck to enjoy.

NRST looks like a win to me! What a concept: Pay your state and local taxes with tax free money!

And pay taxes only when you consume.

[Billy_bob_bob]

One other, purely cynical thought. Have you noticed the "time of year"? It's just before the serious public manuevering for political office is going on in the national parties. The Democrats are publicly and frantically trying to find a viable candidate.

Meanwhile, GWB just happen to toss a nice fresh piece of red meat out for all of the paleoconservatives to chew on, floating a "trial-balloon" about possibly getting rid of the income tax. Now any potential "hard-right" candidates just got one of their favorite issues co-opted, assimilated in the current administrations platform while actually having no chance of being implemented. The thunder of a potential challenger is muted, the hard right are momentarily mollified, and the Bush juggernaut steams on.

[Taxman]

LOL! Well, what can I say without getting in any trouble?

"

---

"!

[Taxman]

And, that is all bad?

I suppose if the "Gore huggernaught" were in place, we would all be better off?

[Billy_bob_bob]

Good grief, no. Bite your tongue man!