Video Implies Lincoln Would Have Supported Liberal Causes

CNSNEWS.com ^ | 2/04/03 | Marc Morano

[WhiskeyPapa]

"If you non-U.S. citizens are wondering what the electoral college is and what bunch of ninnies thought it up: The US Constitution was written by rich white men like Washington, Madison, Hamilton, Randolph, and others. They wrote it for the benefit of rich white men like themselves. They didn't trust the common man --at all--, hence the college of electors, who didn't (and don't) necessarily have to vote for the candidate that carries their state. Here in Georgia, I didn't vote for Al Gore. I voted for nine Democratic Party hacks that promise to vote for Al when the college meets in December. Yeah, I know its crazy, but it works. Abraham LIncoln won the 1860 election with a clear victory in the Electoral College but only @ 40% of the popular vote." - Walt, explaining the electoral college to foreigners

SOURCE: AOL newsgroup

Wow, this must be burning you up to search for me on Usenet.

That's not an AOL newsgroup. There ain't no sech thing. That is from the USENET newsgroup for World War Two.

I was going round and round with some Brits, one Belgian and an Australian about the bombing of Germany. If you search that NG about three years ago, you'll find a thread "Was the daylight bombing campaign necessary?"

The Brits/others were saying that U.S. bombers -- specifically the B-17 -- were almost no value to the war effort. Their bomb loads were too small, their return fire against German fighters was useless, they scattered their bombs pretty much at random across Germany. They were not even a fly on a bull's butt when compared to the mighty Royal Air Force.

They were as vociferous as the neo-rebs on this subject, but I finally reeled them in.

You won't see that line pushed on that NG any more.

AOL has forums, not newsgroups.

Walt

[Aurelius]

"Long years before Herndon had read to Lincoln one of Theodore Parker's sermons, and after doing so made this shallow revivalistic observation: 'I have always noticed that ill-gotten wealth does no man any good. This is true of nations as of individuals. I believe that all the ill-gotten gain wrenched by us from the negro through his enslavement will eventually be taken from us, and we will be set back where we began. Lincoln thought my prophecy rather direful.' This Hebraic-Putitan idea took root in Lincoln's mind, and so in his Second Inaugural he developed it into these demonical words: 'The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him?' Not Johnathon Edwards in his maddest Calvinism ever uttered words to equal these of Lincoln. They mean that slavery, which the New World did not want, had to pay for it in agony and blood, but that the debt had to be paid by those who did not contract the debt. They mean that a just God willed this, and effected his will by a war which cost the country from 750,000 to 1,000,000 lives and $22,000,000,000 of money. If God was now willing the removal of slavery it was through men like Lincoln, who had given the North and the South this war, without any need for it at all, and who within a few weeks of the day of this Inaugural willed that the war should go on, and that the peace proposals of Stephens should come to nothing save upon terms of ignominious capitulation, without any promises or assurances of any sort as to the fate of the South. There are only two ways of interpreting these words of Lincoln: either one interprets them as a Christian and accepts what he said as true and just, because it is taken from the Bible; or else one has retained his reasoning faculties, and abhors them as the incrediible outpouring of a mind at last completely fanaticized."

Lincoln:The Man
Edgar Lee Masters

[Non-Sequitur]

Sure he was a man of his times. His views, while out of step with today's standards, were no different than many of his peers and were still better than the southern leaders. He was a proponent of emigration for free Blacks, like Lee and Breckenridge and countless others, but the idea that he was for the forced removal of all Blacks is ridiculous. Nobody that I'm aware of, North or South, was for that. He was undeniably opposed to slavery and he did believe that blacks were entitled to the same protections of liberty outlined in the Declaration of Independence that whites were, which was heresy to many on both sides of the border. In short I don't pretend that Lincoln was perfect and I don't ignore that, but what I do find objectionable is the savaging of Lincoln and the ignoring of others with even worse beliefs. Why doesn't your offense extend to those with views even more objectionable than those you claim for Lincoln?

[WhiskeyPapa]

All the Lincolnites have to do is admit that Lincoln was a man of the times, just as others were, and forget this revolting revisionism.

It can't be revision to cite events of the day:

"...For the newly freed and the newly enlisted black men who served in the Union army--in the end more than 179,000 of them---perhaps the greatest moment was when they they too, shared the experience of paying their respects, of marching past their president in their new uniforms, looking as smart and martial as any.

On April 23, 1864, and again two days later, newly mustered black regiments in a division attached to the IX corps passed through Washington on their way to the Virginia front. They marched proudly down Pennsylvania Avenue, past Willard's Hotel, where Lincoln and their commander, Burnside stood on a balcony watching. When the six black regiments came in sight of the president they went wild, singing, cheering, dancing in the street while marching. As each unit passed they saluted, and he took off his hat in return, the same modest yet meaningful acknowledgement he gave his white soldiers."

--"Lincoln's Men" pp 163-64 by William C. Davis

You are the one doing the revision.

Walt

[Aurelius]

"And Lee's honor? His statements were inconsistant and self serving:..."

Only in your interpretation, distorted by viewing him from 140 years in the future and by your lifelong exposure to Yankee propaganda. Lee believed his greatest loyalty to be due to his state of Virginia, and his actions were exactly what his sense of honour dictated.

[Non-Sequitur]

It never ceases to amaze me how people here can rant and rave about that 'socialist' James McPherson and then turn around and quote from Edgar Lee Masters.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Why doesn't your offense extend to those with views even more objectionable than those you claim for Lincoln?

Lincoln matters. They don't.

Walt

[4CJ]

Why doesn't your offense extend to those with views even more objectionable than those you claim for Lincoln?

I'm not the one holding Lincoln up as a saint, or portraying him as the 4th member of the Holy Trinity. I'm not the one claiming that Lincoln was not racist (by our standards). As I stated previously, we cannot judge 19th century people by 21st century standards. Almost all Americans had vastly different views of blacks than we do today - and a different view of slavery as well. The attempts to sanitize Lincoln's views by certain posters are nothing more than political correctness gone amuck.

[Non-Sequitur]

The attempts to sanitize Lincoln's views by certain posters are nothing more than political correctness gone amuck.

And the insistence of some on this forum to make them worse than they were is just as bad.

[4CJ]

You are the one doing the revision.

Changing the subject? About 35 times as many blacks stayed behind on the plantations and family farms instead of joining the union army. Most were without supervision, and numerous accounts of their loyalty exist today, just as their records of military service to the Confederate cause. Unlike you, who castigates them for their service - I salute them.

[4CJ]

And the insistence of some on this forum to make them worse than they were is just as bad.

Obviously I can't speak for others, but if you are referring to me, please point out any such references. I might have my own views about Lincoln and his actions, but I certainly try to correct the historically inaccurate views presented, and the ludicrous assertions made glorifying him, with his own words.

[Aurelius]

Maybe you could ask your buddy, Non-Sequitur, what his problem is with Edgar Lee Master?

[Ditto]

"It is commonly believed that Lincoln was an atheist."

Commonly Believed? Only by Lincoln character assassins like you. Anyone who has studied Lincoln with an open mind knows he was not an atheist or even an agnostic. Not associating on a regular basis with any particular denomination and being an atheist are two entirely different things.

[Aurelius]

I find it impossible to believe that a sincere believer could have placed the blame for his own evil on God.

[Ditto]

I find it impossible to believe that a sincere believer could have placed the blame for his own evil on God.

That is so twisted, but also so typical of fanatics like you.

Perhaps as a display of classical abnormal psychology and/or psychological projection, please tell us how you reach that conclusion?

[Aurelius]

"Perhaps as a display of classical abnormal psychology and/or psychological projection, please tell us how you reach that conclusion?"

Why should I waste my time trying to enlighten those beyond hope of enlightenment?

[Ditto]

Masters was part of the trendy left through the first half of the 20th century. He was a law partner with Clarence Darrow. He was "anti-imperalist" meaning he opposed the US having a quasi-colony in the Philippines.

He moved to New York in the 1920s and his circle included hard left and commie types in the literary community. When he dealt with history, (he was a lawyer/poet with no special expertise in history) he was a self avowed "revisionist." His book on Lincoln was totally panned as sloppy history when it was published.

I wouldn't call him a commie, but he was surely solidly on the radical side of the spectrum. He was a bitter man as many 'arts types' are by nature and estranged from American society with a need to knock down icons.

[Ditto]

Why should I waste my time trying to enlighten those beyond hope of enlightenment?

LOL. More doublespeak. It's what I have come to expect from you. Just be a man and admit that you have no idea how to support your silly statements.

[Aurelius]

Lincoln made and continued a needless evil destructive war. He must have had a bad conscience about it because he repeatedly tried to place the blame elsewhere; even at one point, absurdly, on Harriet Beecher Stowe (perhaps he wasn't completely serious). But he was serious in the several instances when he attributed the war to God. I find it impossible regard such statements as anything but insane ravings; and a person who could utter them as a very dangerous person.

[Ditto]

Lincoln made and continued a needless evil destructive war.

You mean the other side had no say? They didn't have to rebel. They didn't have to recruit an army 10 times larger than the Union army. They didn't have to fire the first shot. They could have done a lot of things, but they had their mind set on a fight from the beginning because they all knew that one Southerner could beat any 10 yanks. Lincoln offered them everything in his power if they simply ceased their rebellion.

Don't guys like Ruffin, and Pickins and Toombs and Davis with their pig-headed bluster get any responsibility? Oooops --- I forgot. This is The Lost Cause Myth were dealing with --- the home of the Cult of the Victim where all the men were Christian gentlemen, all the women were beautiful and all the "darkies" were as happy as a bug in the rug until that mean old Lincoln came along. . The south never did anything wrong. Maybe the South did win --- the cultural war that is since it's so damn trendy now to be a victim. Everybody wants to be one but no one wants to accept any responsibility.