Those seeking a 'smoking gun' had better hope they don't get it

[Yours is an argument for never, ever starting any wars. You either don't know it or you're trying to pretend otherwise.] I've been trying to tell you that.

Um, ok, then we, uh... agree.

And you keep saying that Bush has a plan to deal with unpredictable consequences which is impossible.

I don't think I said that "Bush has a plan", as much as I said that you don't know that he doesn't. Which you don't. And by "plan", I don't mean, "plan to deal with ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE UNFORESEEN CIRCUMSTANCES (asteroid falls, Second Coming, Canadian surprise attack, etc.)". I just mean "plan". I hope you understand now.

I agree with you that he does not and can not possibly have a Plan To Deal With Any And All Unforeseen Circumstances. That would be, well, impossible, and only a fool would expect him to have such a plan, or chastise him for not having such a plan, in the first place. Right?

we just need to realize that unpredictable consequences make wars much more risky than other courses of action

And just what the heck makes you think that "we" don't realize that? Sheesh, again you're back to the "if they disagree with me, they all just haven't thought about it as deeply as I have" line.

Was Vietnam thought about? [..]

No, Vietnam was not thought about at all. Nobody in the world thought about it. (What kind of fool question is this?)

Anyway, why are you changing the subject? (Iraq)

You insist Iraq has been thought about,

I'm quite sure it has. You, in your lofty position, are quite sure that it hasn't. "Bush hasn't thought about it at all!" says you, on the internet.

but I hear lots of war propaganda which doesn't give me confidence in that.

I'm sorry to hear that. Your lack of confidence is a personal issue for you to work through on your own. Good luck with that.

WMD in terrorists hands are a real potential problem. Has Saddam had contacts with terrorists? No hard evidence so far,

What you mean is, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN any hard evidence so far. As in, if they have hard evidence (which they may), they haven't sent it to Newsweek.

People keep making this mistake of thinking that they are important intelligence figures. To many people, if they haven't seen any evidence, then, why, there's no evidence! (Here's a hint: Look up the word "classified" in the dictionary.)

Will it turn out ok? I sincerely hope so, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I'll take that bet. I bet the US wins this war, you bet otherwise. Million bucks. Deal?

Of course Vietnam was thought about. It just wasn't imaginable that we could lose. I'm not changing the subject, just pointing out that there are consequences to going to war versus the alternatives. We could have done nothing in Vietnam and had the same result with a lot less tragedy. You are going to say it's an obvious truism and not applicable, but it's a clear example of war's unpredictable outcomes.

I have always said we would win the war but could lose in the longer run once we are tied down in the country. The military threats posed by civil war, Kurdish independence, Iran's and Turkey's possible involvement is enough to convince me that there could be very unpredictable outcomes. Not to mention Islamic takeover, chaotic uncontrolled areas that can harbor terrorists, threats to the oil supply, etc.

Of course Vietnam was thought about. It just wasn't imaginable that we could lose.

It "wasn't imaginable"? Sure it was. Anyway, we didn't "lose" that war.

I'm not changing the subject, just pointing out that there are consequences to going to war versus the alternatives.

Wow, thanks professor. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT!

Talk about condescending. Nobody BESIDES YOU has given this any thought. Nobody BESIDES YOU knows that there are consequences to going to war versus the alternatives. Don't you know how condescending you are being? Truly irritating; you don't even grant your opponents the common courtesy of assuming they've thought this through. If they disagree with you, they haven't thought it through - QED. That's your story and you're sticking to it, right?

Get real. Other people besides you have brains, in case you didn't know.

We could have done nothing in Vietnam and had the same result with a lot less tragedy.

I'm really not interested in discussing counterfactual alternative histories here. It really is an attempt to change the subject on your part. You do seem a little hung up about Vietnam, and perhaps that is coloring your view here, I don't know....

I have always said we would win the war but could lose in the longer run once we are tied down in the country.

I see. That's your opinion, and it's duly noted. Thanks for sharing. We'll see what happens.

... is enough to convince me that there could be very unpredictable outcomes.

Argh. OF COURSE there "could be" "unpredictable outcomes". Even the most hawkish of hawks would agree with this. After all, just exactly when is this not true? No war, no foreign policy move, and indeed no human endeavor is completely free from the possibility of unpredictable outcomes. That's life.

Again: yours ("let's not fight a war if there could be unpredictable outcomes") is an argument for never, ever fighting a war. Whether you know it or not.

I'm not being condescending, I fully admit there are good possible outcomes to war with Iraq and that there are probably lots of things I'm not aware of that would make war very urgent. But what I'm trying to point out to you in particular is it is useful to look back at the 20th century and be cautious about going to war instead of only pointing out the potential benefits of this war as you do.

I was very nervous, for example, about going to war against Yugoslavia, specifically Serbia. There was a potential for the war to destabilize the Balkans, draw in Russia, restart war between Greece and Turkey, or other possibilities. In the end we accomplished almost nothing except aiding some Islamic groups who are becoming our future enemies.

Again, I'm not trying to change the subject, just pointing out an example of how that war antagonized a potential ally, brought undesirable people into power, and still has the possibility of spilling over into Macedonia and elsewhere. The Iraq war has all those possibilities and is in a much more dangerous and critical area of the world.

I'm not being condescending, [...] But what I'm trying to point out to you in particular is it is useful to look back at the 20th century and be cautious about going to war

And that, my friend, is the condescending part. I don't need this to be "pointed out" by you, or anyone else, thank you very much. Why, exactly, do you assume that I do? Think about it.

instead of only pointing out the potential benefits of this war as you do.

Big fat lie, right here. I most certainly do not "only" point out the potential benefits of this war. There are many potential drawbacks, and I am fully aware of that. Here's one potential drawback: a chemical or biological terrorist attack on mainland U.S. in retaliation, with thousands of lives lost. It's a possibility, and a very real one. I'm very apprehensive about it. Happy? I still think that war is necessary though. (Of course, you can't understand this part; if I support war, I simply must not be aware of any potential drawbacks whatsoever, and their existence needs to be endlessly "pointed out" to me, as if I am a child. The reason for this, of course, is that ONLY YOU have a brain. None of the rest of us do - how can we, if we disagree with you?)

[Yugoslavia history lesson deleted] Again, I'm not trying to change the subject,

Not trying to, perhaps, but you did.

just pointing out an example of how that war antagonized a potential ally, brought undesirable people into power, and still has the possibility of spilling over into Macedonia and elsewhere.

I disagreed with the Yugoslavia bombing too, for what it's worth. Happy?

The Iraq war has all those possibilities and is in a much more dangerous and critical area of the world.

I have no argument with this. Taking this and everything else into account, I still come out thinking that war is probably necessary. Ok?

Of course, you cannot conceive of that: someone who has thought about all the things you've thought about, and yet, come to a different conclusion. How can such a thing be possible? So, I'm sure you'll think of something that (you assume) I haven't "thought through", and then "point it out" to me. Looking forward to it....

Sounds like we agree on most things except the risk/reward tradeoff. You and the administration see the removal of Saddam to help stabilize the region, remove a potential threat to our interests, and help with the war against terrorism. You admit to substantial risks, but only tactical not strategic.

I on the other hand don't see much reward in the best case: another Arab puppet dictactor or an experiment in controlled democracy instead of Saddam and his much hyped WMD programs. The worst case is that we will end up worse off with chaos leading to more terrorism and our withdrawal from the region. I gave some examples from history of bad war outcomes.

My examples don't apply directly (what you call changing the subject) because there are no direct analogies between those situations. I only use them to point out the various ways that strategies can fail in the long run. I agree that the administration has thought through tactical contingencies and has plans for them. But when a strategy fails (e.g. the Kurds decide they want a country, Iran decides to arm Shiites, Turkey turns fundamentalist, etc) we won't have military options.

The essential problem with war is that it greatly increases the chances of those outcomes because it gets people stirred up, opens old wounds, and creates opportunities for evil such as retribution against innocents which causes even more war. You call that an argument against all war but it's not. War is sometimes inevitable, we were attacked on 9/11 and went to war against the Islamic terrorists who attacked us. War against Iraq, even assuming there's a terrorist connection, is not inevitable.

Sounds like we agree on most things except the risk/reward tradeoff.

Probably.

You admit to substantial risks, but only tactical not strategic.

No, I certainly admit to "strategic" risks too. I admit to all risks.

I on the other hand don't see much reward in the best case:

Noted.

I gave some examples from history of bad war outcomes.

That you did. Well, sort of. Yugoslavia's outcome (despite your dire warnings) cannot actually be considered "bad" at all, and even Vietnam's could be considered "good" in the larger context of the Cold War. But yes, you certainly did discuss some historical wars.

But when a strategy fails (e.g. the Kurds decide they want a country, Iran decides to arm Shiites, Turkey turns fundamentalist, etc) we won't have military options.

How do you know? Based on what do you say this? Are you privy to military leadership briefings which the rest of us are not?

You don't know jack squat about what our military is prepared to do and which contingencies they've planned for.

Ok fine, it's not an argument against all war. I go you one better: it's not an argument against any wars. Not this one, not any. In fact it's not even an argument at all. For anything.

War against Iraq, even assuming there's a terrorist connection, is not inevitable.

Actually, given the rhetorical and diplomatic and military buildup, I happen to think it is. But I could be wrong. We'll see. Best,

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