America Hijacked [Multiple Texts]

The State.com ^ | 1/25/2003 | N/A

[a_Turk]

Ataturk was an honorable soldier. We regard him as the savior of our nation. Foreigners speak of him with praize and write books about him. Heads of state admire him. Truman had his portrait on his wall. Will you allow this minority, decended from survivors of an unsuccessful movement of backstabbers, select your friends?

There are many more examples I can give like this one. Would you be interested in the 3 years sentence the Armenian Terrorist Murad Topalian received from a US court, inspite of his complicity in terror attacks which killed dozens of Turkish diplomats and their families?

I watch with sadness how a small group of hyphenated Americans is ruining a once excellent friendship. Is it too late to turn it around?

[a_Turk]

ping..

[Sparta]

I don't know. I just don't know.

[WOSG]

It seems a lot of the anger came from the victims and heirs of victims of the genocides of early 20th century.

Some of us simply dont know the details here:

Historically speaking, did Ataturk have anything to do with teh Armenian genocide by Turkish/Ottoman Govt of 1915-1919 that killed 2 million Christian Armenians?

[Bogolyubski]

Ataturk wasn't in control of the country then. I recall reading somewhere that he commanded a Turkish military unit involved in the killings, though. The supposedly "moderate" Muslims of Turkey have nevertheless indulged in a systematic ethnic cleansing campaign from the 1920s onward. A wholesale massacre of the largely Greek and Armenian Christian Orthodox population of Smyrna was carried out in 1922, for example. The Greek and Armenian Christian (and Turkish Christians) population has been reduced to a tiny fraction of what it once was. Srda Trifkovic has given this issue some coverage in the following article:

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic/NewsST060502.html

[marron]

Look, its not either-or. People are not unalloyed creatures.

We are rise out of a specific time and place, all of us are shaped and molded by the times, and the culture we were born into.

Some few of us then manage to go beyond those limitations, to see a little further than the others see, and of those few, an even smaller number manage to act on what they see.

I love and admire my country, as the world's greatest moral experiment. I reject the criticisms of her enemies. But that doesn't change the fact that we obliterated the native tribes in our march west. And the fact that we did so does not change the great moral experiment that was going on in parallel.

People are not plaster saints. They do what they think is right, in the moment they have on this earth.

It is entirely possible for us to admire the courage of the US Cavalry, while recognizing that 19th century attitudes and tactics are not our own. And that they were often sent into battle by men who were their moral inferiors. Some of the great Indian Wars were caused by the natural clash of civilizations, as two completely different cultures competed for the same land. And several of the wars resulted directly from political corruption as crooked politicians saw an opportunity to profit by the Indian's misery.

Similarly, it is possible to see the Armenian genocide as one of the great crimes in history, perhaps right up there alongside some of the Indian Wars of the old west, and still admire the Turks, and even admire Ataturk himself. If Turks still can't admit what happened to the Armenians, at the beginning of the new millenium, how was Ataturk going to see it at the twilight of the Ottoman Empire?

Similarly, I have read of the absolute slaughter of the Greeks, in the aftermath of their uprising on the Turkish mainland. It is horrifying. I know I would never want to face Turkish troops in war.

But their slaughters would soon be eclipsed, only a few years later, by German troops as they launched outward on their rampage through history.

Every country in Europe has its history of slaughter. Some of them have come to terms with it, some have simply forgotten it ever happened. The most important lesson out of the second world war is not what awful people the Germans were, but that even the Germans, the most advanced people in Europe, were vulnerable to be drawn into evil.

Evil is not only committed by evil people. Evil is often committed by otherwise good people who do not see what they do.

We can't completely absolve our ancestors of their crimes, because even in those times there were people who saw it for what it was, there were people even then who knew it was wrong. But we also have to recognize that this is the human condition. We are not only the sum of our crimes. We are also the sum of those rare souls who are able to see a little farther than the rest, and have the courage to act on it.

Ataturk was a great man. He was also a human being. God will judge him as God will judge us all. The Turks have earned a reputation as solid people, brave and honorable, and absolutely fearsome in war.

If Turks want to study the American Old West, and mainly the Indian Wars, you will find an era that is absolutely fascinating, and full of endless examples of courage, and common people facing uncommon challenges. You will also find episodes that will bring tears to your eyes, and make you ashamed for us. There are two sides to this story. There are even two sides to the Indian's story, as they are also human, and they are also not plaster saints. But history is made up of the actions of human beings, not saints. Thats why its so fascinating.

[ellery]

Thank you for the ping. Turkey is our friend -- bump!

[Stultis]

But Ataturk is reviled by those who say he was responsible for the forced relocation and deaths of millions of Greeks and Armenians from 1915 to 1917.

This is indeed when the greatest offenses occured, but Ataturk was not in power then! I believe that Ataturk can be held responsible for depravations against Armenians that occured later, but these were under much more "colored" cirsumstances, including a revolt by the Armenians (in an attempt to establish an idependent state) and collusion with Russian forces attempting to fragment the Turkish state.

IOW my take is "both and". Ataturk was involved in the trailing end of a long genocidal campaign against Armenians (which the Turks would do best, even it terms of their own interests, to acknowledge) and he was a great man, one of the worlds all-time most skilled and accomplished leaders, who transformed the homeland of an ancient Islamic empire into a modern, liberal, democratic state.

[a_Turk]

>>killed 2 million Christian

Where the hell do you people get your numbers? Why not just make it 10 million? 10 million, sounds good..

[a_Turk]

There were population exchanges between Turkey and neighboring countries where millions of people were exchanged. So what?

[a_Turk]

What Ataturk was or wasn't. I suppose is secondary to what I wanted to convey here. There is a group among you, increasingly assertive and successful, who wants to see the US and Turkey at odds. Their motto: Turkey the Great Satan. It's seeping into your kids school books. Just like the group among Arabs who teach US hate in their madrassahs. What's going to be done about this?

If you folks feel that one is ok, then the other should be just as ok.

[DeuceTraveler]

Mustafa Kamel fought a great battle against the ANZACS, saving the Ottoman Empire in WWI. I don't know as much as I would like to from the history of Turkey, but I greatly admire him for the amazing victory he achieved.

[DeuceTraveler]

I know in the first few years of the 20th centuries the Ottoman Empire (under the theocratic rulers Mustafa Kamel overthrew)commited genocide on a number of people who call themselves Syrics or Syrans (not to be confused with the people of Syria). Now their remnants are scattered throughout Europe and West Asia.

[Stultis]

There is a group among you, increasingly assertive and successful, who wants to see the US and Turkey at odds.

I'm not aware of any specific anti-Turkish movement over here, other than some Armenians and Greek Orthodox who go into the standard political correctness rant any time something positive is said about Ataturk. Turkey is widely percieved favorably in America as bulwark of liberal values on the NATO front lines. There do remain, among the general American public, stereotypes about Turkish political corruption, but then these are (however unfortunately) fairly well warranted.

[marron]

I agree. I am unaware of any anti-Turk movement. I live in California, where much of the Armenian diaspora wound up. The Armenians I know are salt-of-the-earth... but they don't talk about it. Its not a subject for normal conversation.

Americans hold no grudges against Germans, or Japanese either, and they killed plenty of us. We don't hold grudges.

What we do, though, is we know who our friends are. In recent years, that means tensions are rising between us and our Euro ex-friends, especially in the aftermath of 9/11. You live in the US, I believe, so you must have noticed that, aside from the left, we have been very shaken by what happened. Not by the attack, mind you, but by the sight of seeing our friends side against us.

For that we are angry, and getting madder.

But we noticed who was still at our side, and who didn't take the opportunity to take a slap at us. The Turks are front and center. So people who never gave Turkey a second thought are suddenly very pro-Turk. You see people all over this website talking about the new alliance between us and the Turks, and the Russians, and the Indians...

All that may be hyperbole, but the sentiment behind it is real, and it is rooted in appreciation. We are looking to see who our friends are, and they aren't many. But we appreciate the people who stand with us.

[struwwelpeter]

Food for thought. Sad to read this about Ataturk.

I had an interesting discussion once with an Austria man, about their president at the time, Kurt Waldheim. Waldheim was also a former general secretary of the UN, but a big stink was suddenly being raised about him turning out to have worked in military intelligence during the war.

The Austrian's (wise) remark: "You have to look pretty hard to find an old man in Europe without some blood on his hands."

[Madcelt]

I'm not aware of any specific anti-Turkish movement over here,

I would'nt be so sure of that. The Turks have been fighting Radical Islamists,communist rebels,facing a wonderful neighbor "Syria" that stirrs up dissent. When things happen in Turkey its not Broadcast out so the world can see whats going on in the frontier areas. If it is, normally the Turks are made out to be the villan. Liberal Bias perhaps? Or did too many Communist get killed that day so it deserved to be in the paper?

[Stultis]

Oh, yeah, it goes without saying that the communists, and much of the rest of the left, will attack and villify any liberal, capitalistic government, or any civil society, that is in conflict with barbarism, despotism, or violent insurrection. That's not particular to the Turks, but the fact that they have far and away the most progressive government in the Arab/Muslim religion (yeah, I know they aren't arabs) means that the so-called "progressives" are going to constantly be on their case (while licking blood off the jack-boots of the thugs within and across their borders).

[Madcelt]

the so-called "progressives" are going to constantly be on their case (while licking blood off the jack-boots of the thugs within and across their borders).

did ya have to bring up A.N.S.W.E.R.? Did ya?

[WOSG]

Go to this web site:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

And read the FAQ:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocidefaq.htm#How%20many

How many people died in the Armenian Genocide?
It is estimated that one and a half million Armenians perished between 1915 and 1923. There were an estimated two million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire on the eve of W.W.I. Well over a million were deported in 1915. Hundreds of thousands were butchered outright. Many others died of starvation, exhaustion, and epidemics which ravaged the concentration camps. Among the Armenians living along the periphery of the Ottoman Empire many at first escaped the fate of their countrymen in the central provinces of Turkey. Tens of thousands in the east fled to the Russian border to lead a precarious existence as refugees. The majority of the Armenians in Constantinople, the capital city, were spared deportation. In 1918, however, the Young Turk regime took the war into the Caucasus, where approximately 1,800,000 Armenians lived under Russian dominion. Ottoman forces advancing through East Armenia and Azerbaijan here too engaged in systematic massacres. The expulsions and massacres carried by the Nationalist Turks between 1920 and 1922 added tens of thousands of more victims. By 1923 the entire landmass of Asia Minor and historic West Armenia had been expunged of its Armenian population. The destruction of the Armenian communities in this part of the world was total.

NOTE: THE IRAQI DESTRUCTION OF KURDS (ABOUT 1/2-1 MILLION) BY SADDAM'S REGIME IN 1980s IN THEIR "ANFAL CAMPAIGN" ALSO CLASSIFIES AS A CLASSIC GENOCIDE