Phil Donahue Ridicules Christian Salvation Doctrine

Concerned Women for America ^ | 1/9/2003 | Al Dobras

[nicmarlo]

Worth reading more than once.

Well, having only read Book I, I must say, I know I'm going to HAVE to read it again.....there's just so much in it and I have this funny feeling some of it is just escaping me......not that I'm dumb, of course, just that I know more will be understood the second go 'round.

[ohioWfan]

You don't have to be dumb to need a second reading of Lewis!

Jesus, Among Other Gods, by Ravi Zacharias is also excellent. Have you read that? He's absolutely brilliant also, but writes in a style that is accessible, even for mental lightweights like me!

[UnRuley]

Believe it or not, some of us Catholics do pray with and read scripture daily. It is called the Mass.
Catholics who actually take their faith seriously do study and meditate on scripture in addition.
As far as this topic goes, I'd like to hear some explanations from Protestants as to whether Moses, Abraham, Isaac and others who lived before Jesus, are in Heaven seeing that they didn't actually "know" Jesus or accept salavation.

[nicmarlo]

Jesus, Among Other Gods, by Ravi Zacharias

No (not yet anyways), but, this thread is making my "to read" list longer!

[strider44]

My husband was raised Catholic and we had a huge discussion the night that O'Reilly told Falwell that Christians don't have a lock on going to heaven, that he believed that if you are a good person, no matter what God you worship, you would go to heaven. I responded with the same Bible verse that Falwell quoted on Donahue and my husband just shrugged and admitted that he didn't know the Bible like I did because the Catholic church didn't encourage reading the Bible.

I agree with O'reilly. Every Chinese person, Indian, Japanese, or anyone else who has a different religion - none of them are going to Heaven?! Ridiculous. Christians don't have a lock on the afterlife. I hate PD, but he is right on this one. Give me a break. I'm a Catholic. I'm a good person, I follow the 10 Commandments, the golden rule, etc. Why should I go out of my way to assume some Hindu 8,000 miles away is full of shit and won't go to Heaven because he doesn't believe in Jesus?

[hunter112]

Ah, I love reading these religious threads. Phil Donahue knows the entertainment value of making religion his topic, too, and the guests he invites play into it.

Intolerance always makes for a good fight to watch, that's why we have these fakey "courtroom" shows on, we like to see people who can't get along fight with each other, it's also provided a lot of fodder for Jerry Springer and his ilk. Then I come to this thread and see people who call themselves "Christians" baiting each other over who can recite the Bible better than the others.

There's a simple solution: just don't give in to the temptation to be intolerant. Don't get into fights with gays, you'll always lose in the media. If the gay couple down the street gets "married", its not going to have any bearing on your own marriage, unless you and your spouse fight about it.

Or, keep on doing the intolerance thing, and provide free entertainment for people who are not encumbered by restrictive religions.

[Eva]

The Jews were God's chosen people, they had a convenant with God which the original Jews followed, after Christ came and died for our sins, the old convenant was replaced with the new, simpler promise of salvation, "Whosoever believeth in me should not perish, but have everlasting life."

[pankot]

Thou shalt listen to the Donahue and verily thou shalt hear an actual asshole speaketh.

[UnRuley]

They were all saved by Jesus whether they were aware of it or not.
God doesn't condem anyone simply because they were never told of Jesus. It isn't their fault. God is more merciful than any of us could imagine.

[Eva]

What about the Bible verse, "I am the way, the truth and the life and no man cometh unto the father but through me.
Are we to ignore this? Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God or not?

[philosofy123]

Here is a nice question. Suppose I was God, and I am looking down on my human race killing each others and behaving badly. Then I say to myself, self, why don't I send a messenger to these people to teach them ethical/moral behaviors. So I sent EVERY single messenger to one unpopulated area of the earth, and neglected the most populated areas, like China, and India. Do you think that would be fair to send ALL my messengers to one single area?

[sweetliberty]

Excellent post. I especially like your references that compare Nazi Germany and American liberalism. Whenever I hear liberals ranting about conservatives being like Nazis I have to chuckle at their obvious ignorance. Funny how they're front and center in condemning Nazism as something evil while supporting the very things that allowed it to grow.

[sweetliberty]

I like the way Barry McGuire put it one time in discussing salvation with a non-believer. He said "if I'm wrong, I haven't lost a thing, but if you're wrong you've lost everything, even your very soul."

[COBOL2Java]

Yahweh, in His wisdom, has chosen that their own spiritual blindness would condemn them.............that together with His other enemies, they would spend eternity banished from His presence.

Whenever I read or hear about Donohue, I am reminded of Romans 1: 21-22

...for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

[Remedy]

Politically Incorrect Salvation

Contemporary religious pluralism regards the traditional Christian doctrine of salvation through Christ alone as unconscionable. The problem seems to be that the existence of an all-loving and all-powerful God seems incompatible with the claim that persons who do not hear and embrace the gospel of salvation through Christ will be damned. Closer analysis reveals the problem to be counterfactual in nature: God could not condemn persons who, though freely rejecting God's sufficient grace for salvation revealed through nature and conscience, would have received His salvific grace mediated through the gospel. In response, it may be pointed out that God's being all-powerful does not guarantee that He can create a world in which all persons freely embrace His salvation and that His being all-loving does not entail that, even if such a world were feasible for Him, God would prefer such a world over a world in which some persons freely reject His salvation. Furthermore, it is possible that God has created a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost and that God has so providentially ordered the world that those who fail to hear the gospel and be saved would not have freely responded affirmatively to it even if they had heard it.

[CPT Clay]

Is that show still on I thought it was going to be cancelled soon?

[Marysecretary]

I agree. And it CAN happen. Can't put God in a box. He surprises us every time we do. M

[UnRuley]

The Gospel IS being spread throughout the entire world now. There are many people though, throughout the centuries prior to modern methods of communication and travel, who were never evangilized.
Is it fair for God to condemn them because missionaries didn't make it to their village during their lifetime?

[Remedy]

I agree with O'reilly. Every Chinese person, Indian, Japanese, or anyone else who has a different religion - none of them are going to Heaven?! Ridiculous. Christians don't have a lock on the afterlife. I hate PD, but he is right on this one. Give me a break. I'm a Catholic. I'm a good person, I follow the 10 Commandments, the golden rule, etc. Why should I go out of my way to assume some Hindu 8,000 miles away is full of shit and won't go to Heaven because he doesn't believe in Jesus?

"No Other Name"
A Middle Knowledge Perspective on the Exclusivity of Salvation Through Christ

The conviction of the New Testament writers was that there is no salvation apart from Jesus. This orthodox doctrine is widely rejected today because God's condemnation of persons in other world religions seems incompatible with various attributes of God. Analysis reveals the real problem to involve certain counterfactuals of freedom, e.g., why did not God create a world in which all people would freely believe in Christ and be saved? Such questions presuppose that God possesses middle knowledge. But it can be shown that no inconsistency exists between God's having middle knowledge and certain persons' being damned; on the contrary, it can be positively shown that these two notions are compatible.

[nicmarlo]

Moses, Abraham, Isaac and others who lived before Jesus, are in Heaven seeing that they didn't actually "know" Jesus or accept salavation.

Paul, I believe, speaks to that, is it in Hebrews? I'll check, their faith being counted as righteousness....among other things.