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Australia Plans 1-Km High Structure, Taller Than CN Tower (Solar Power Generation)
Yahoo/Reuters ^ | 1/3/03 | Michelle Nichols

Posted on 01/03/2003 4:33:43 PM PST by Brett66

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1 posted on 01/03/2003 4:33:43 PM PST by Brett66
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To: Brett66
Wow! They're actually going to do this?
2 posted on 01/03/2003 4:36:49 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: Brett66
Wild.
3 posted on 01/03/2003 4:43:40 PM PST by Dan Day
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To: Brett66
and will stand in the center of a massive glass roof spanning seven kilometers in diameter. Despite its size, the technology is simple -- the sun heats air under the glass roof, which slopes upwards from three meters at its outer perimeter to 25 meters at the tower base.

Let's see... An essentially flat circular glass building with 414.2 MILLION square feet of glass... What size army of window washers is it going to take to keep this thing clean as dirt and dust settle down on it?

And one good hail storm could ruin their whole day.

4 posted on 01/03/2003 4:51:55 PM PST by Dan Day
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To: Dan Day
What size army of window washers is it going to take to keep this thing clean as dirt and dust settle down on it?

The homeless guy presently hassling you for a windshield wash at every stoplight, would be a good start. Him, and a really big bottle of Windex.

Unfortunately it won't happen because for this to technology to be built would mean the end of the Kyoto treaty. Cheap clean electricity = no more fossil fuel 'crisis' = no more dismantling the US economy in favor of third-world redistributionist socialism and the European style punitive taxes. You're stuck with the homeless guy.

5 posted on 01/03/2003 5:11:38 PM PST by redbaiter
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To: Brett66
It's Isengard!!! Saruman is going to build his army there!!! Dont fall for it!!!!
6 posted on 01/03/2003 5:14:43 PM PST by shadowman99
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To: Dan Day
Another thing: What will be the effects on farms under the glass? The original artist's concept drawing showed agricultural fields under there.
7 posted on 01/03/2003 5:21:12 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: Brett66
It's only a matter of time before that French lunatic that climbs everything gets there and climbs it.

Pretty cool idea-- I hope they do build it.
8 posted on 01/03/2003 5:23:50 PM PST by Riley
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To: Brett66
"The 200 megawatt solar tower, which will cost A$ 1 billion ($563 million) to build, will be of a similar width to a football field and will stand in the center of a massive glass roof spanning seven kilometers in diameter."

Five hundred and sixty three million American dollars to build a plant that produces only 20% of the power that a 'standard' fossil or nuclear plant develops....

What a fine investment.

What an innovative use of real estate.

--Boris

9 posted on 01/03/2003 5:36:38 PM PST by boris
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To: redbaiter
" Cheap clean electricity"

Solar power is anything but cheap. It may be "clean" but it is about the most expensive way to generate power there is. This is because solar energy is so dilute.

I have given the calculation zillions of times here, but for example (without the details) you would need 150 square miles of solar cells to supply California's energy needs. If solar cells cost one cent per square centimeter, it would cost $300 billion, not counting the cost of land, maintenance, and homeless guys wiping bird droppings off the panels.

I can give the detailed calcs if you want; I'm just tired of doing it over and over and over...

--Boris

10 posted on 01/03/2003 5:40:37 PM PST by boris
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To: boris
LOL! You've hit on an interesting point. They'll probably make more from billing it as a tourist attraction... You sell each tourist that comes to see it a $2 can of coke and postcard and you'll recoup your investment in about 10-15 yrs I would reckon.
11 posted on 01/03/2003 5:47:04 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Riley
Nah, if it's sloped, it'd be more fun to slide down!
12 posted on 01/03/2003 5:47:47 PM PST by bobwoodard
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To: boris
Five hundred and sixty three million American dollars to build a plant that produces only 20% of the power that a 'standard' fossil or nuclear plant develops....

They basically need $2800 per customer to pay off the cost of building it. Figure $80 a month from the customer. In five years, that will be $960 million to pay off for the cost of building it, plus upkeep, staffing, etc... Probably still not broken even that point, but getting close to it.

This is a great answer for rural customers. Clean energy. Low maintenance... Very simple parts, so repairs are a snap. Just because it is green, doesn't make it bad.

13 posted on 01/03/2003 6:08:18 PM PST by dogbyte12
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To: boris
Boris, aren't we doing apples and oranges here though? This is not solar cell technology. A football field sized array of solar panels does not generate power for 200,000 households.

Let us assume this technology works as they say it does.

Figure 10 million households in California. 40 football field sizes of these bad boys in the mojave desert. Dump the coal generators and keep El Diablo on line with cleaner nuke power to supply much of the power needed in the evening.

40 billion. But in a state that already is 35 billion in debt for this year... 40 billion isn't really that much money. It will be cheaper in the long run. Maintenance is going to be a lot lower. The air much cleaner. Couple that with the switch to hybrid cars, and the state gets quite a bit cleaner.

14 posted on 01/03/2003 6:13:57 PM PST by dogbyte12
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To: Brett66
The company also hopes the project will save more than 700,000 tonnes of greenhouse gases a year that might otherwise have been emitted through coal or oil-fired power stations.

They are worried about greenhouse gases, but here, they are merely bypassing the greenhouse gases and directly creating global warming using a huge greenhouse!

15 posted on 01/03/2003 6:23:00 PM PST by RJL
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To: dogbyte12
"Boris, aren't we doing apples and oranges here though? This is not solar cell technology. A football field sized array of solar panels does not generate power for 200,000 households."

Sigh. I use solar cells as representative and because that is the technology so frequently proposed. Here goes.

The "solar constant" in Earth orbit is about 1370 watts per square meter. On the ground, at the equator, at high noon, no clouds, it is almost exactly 1000 watts (1 kW) per square meter.

Solar cells are ~20% efficient, so you get 200 watts (electric) from solar cells. But there is night, so the effective output is roughly 100 watts per square meter.

California uses (electricity only!) 40,000 megawatts 24/7/365. That is 4 times ten to the tenth watts.

4E10/100 = 4E8 square meters. That is 4.3E9 square feet, or 154 square miles.

Notice that this assumes you are on the equator, which CA isn't.

Now. Solar cells could be pushed to maybe 30% efficiency, and then you would need 2/3 of 154 square miles or 103 square miles.

I will bet you anything this solar breeze machine is no more efficient than the best solar cells...Carnot's law and all that.

See?

--Boris

16 posted on 01/03/2003 6:29:36 PM PST by boris
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To: Prodigal Son
LOL! You've hit on an interesting point. They'll probably make more from billing it as a tourist attraction... You sell each tourist that comes to see it a $2 can of coke and postcard and you'll recoup your investment in about 10-15 yrs I would reckon.

Yes, but if you put it in an out of the way place, the tourists are going to waste a lot of energy driving to see it. Maybe the tower will be able to power an electric train to and from the nearest city, so that tourists can take the electric train there. Then they can see the tower that powers the train, and finally the tower's electricity can take them and the train back to the city. Then when they get off the train, they can all say to each other, "That was pretty pointless."

17 posted on 01/03/2003 6:32:43 PM PST by Vince Ferrer
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To: dogbyte12
40 football field sizes of these bad boys in the mojave desert?

What? You will decimate the habitat of rattlesnakes, and block the sun they need to generate body heat.
18 posted on 01/03/2003 6:45:16 PM PST by mseltzer
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To: boris
It appears that the enviro-flakes are not using photovoltaic cells but rather are thinking of using turbines
to harvest energy in a man-made updraft chamber, which is even more inefficient.
19 posted on 01/03/2003 6:45:41 PM PST by red-dawg
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To: Brett66; boris
This is pretty interesting. If it costs 553,000,000 American to build, and will actually supply 200,000 homes, that comes out to less than three grand per household. This makes it all come down to operating costs. If you get 20 years out of it before significant maintenance, that puts the per household cost at approximately $140 per year for the structure itself. This seems pretty reasonable.

One problem I've always had with nuclear is that the true cost of generation is usually hidden. The cost of de-commissioning plants is astronomical, as is disposal of expended waste.

I'd be curious as to what the comparative expenses would be. How much per household (average) is the cost of the plant and the fuel used per annum? I know the South Texas Nuclear Plant nearly bankrupted Austin, TX with cost overruns, although the generating capacity far exceeds what this would produce.

Hey Boris! I know you're negative on this, but you seem to understand a lot about the industry, so how much would they save on not having to purchase fuel? Would it be enough to offset construction costs?

20 posted on 01/03/2003 6:52:34 PM PST by Richard Kimball
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