Do Moslems, Christians and Jews Believe in the Same God?"

FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | November 29, 2002 | Serge Trifkovic

[ArGee]

In a sense, this transcendance is what people are really looking for in religion: a feeling which allows us to escape from the lonely prision of our own pitiful little bodies and re-integration with the magnificent cosmos from which we seem to emanate, to feel at-one-ment with it...

I'm going to pass on your suggestion that sex is the same as a little girl wanting to cuddle her mommy. You might want to examine that one more closely on your own.

What I want to know is, do we simply feel we can "re-integrat[e] with the magnificent cosmos" or is it actually possible. Do we "seem" to emanate from it or do we actually emanate from it? I'm asking you what you believe.

Shalom.

[koax]

no.

[pgyanke]

Hmmmm... Ok, but the point of the issue was whether we believe in the same God. Surely Christians and Jews do. Without the Jews, there is no Christianity (salvation is from the Jews).

If God is eternal, He did not change Himself in His sacrifice on the cross. He only fulfilled His promise. Therefore, the God of the Christians and the God of the Jews are the same.

This doesn't mean the Jews are "right" with God, though. God doesn't call us to worship Him OUR way but HIS. Jesus was very clear in His message that He is the only way.

Again, a small distinction but worth the carpal tunnel.

[jackd]

Very interesting article. Is there a contrary argument also citing Moslem scripture ? This is the first time that I have read of the section of the Koran called the Sarras. Are these the last "words of" Muhammed? I am also surprised that the author of the article did not engage the fact that the Koran was "dictated" to a scribe while Muhammed was having epilectic seizures.
The more research done on the foundations of the Koran the more apparent, at least to me, that this is a human generated religion prescribing social behavior.

[ArGee]

Are we making a distinction between whether we are worshipping the true G-d and whether we are worshipping Him as He wants to be worshipped?

For those outside your conversation, I know that the two of you presume that He cares how we worship Him.

Shalom.

[pgyanke]

I have to run for now. I'll check back tonight. Thanks for the chat.

[kinsman redeemer]

Ummm...not quite

Insightful response. Please elaborate. In your elaboration, I suggest that you give me an example of a religion that does not fit my definition.

Thanks.

[chilepepper]

Perhaps you should examine your own thoughts. You are the one who initially brought up sex. Perhaps you take Freud too seriously. I prefer Carl Jung and even Timothy Leary.

I'll stand by what I said. Love is merger, even sex, but on a different plane. I mean, come on, at least hetero sex is literally going back into the womb. How much closer can you get than that?

If there exists a plane of existence beyond what we see, then at these moments of transcendance, whether hugging, feeling solidarity, sex, or religious trance, we are in fact merging at a plane which our pitiful scientific instruments cannot yet measure. Those who have reached enlightenment, Gautama, Jesus, "Osiris" can exist in this plane, and others, at will...

[ZULU]

"While the influence of orthodox Christianity upon the Koran has been slight, apocryphal and heretical Christian legends are the second most important original source of Islam. In other words, Islam contains an awful lot that Christians have deliberately rejected over the years as religiously unsound. There are also influences of Sabaism, of Zoroastrianism, and of ancient Arabian paganism, including the divine sanction for the practices of polygamy and slavery. The reports in both the Koran and the Hadith (authoritative traditional sayings) concerning paradise, the houris, (virgins) the youths, the jinn (genies) and the angel of death have been directly taken from the ancient books of the Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism also originated the story that on the Day of Judgment all people will have to cross a bridge stretched across hell leading to paradise on which the unbelievers will stumble and fall down to hell. "

The author of this piece REALLY doesn't know anything about what he is talking about when he equates Islam in any way with Zorastrianism, the first monotheistic and ethical faith in the world, and another of the very many victims of militant Islam.

Zoroastrians believe in one God, whom they call Ahura Mazda.
This faith began over 3000 years ago and probably antedates monotheistic Judaism. They believe in an evil spirit or force called Ahriman and the existence of demons and devils, who are enemies of God and man. They envision both the world and each one of us as the site of a titanic conflict between the forces of God and the forces of evil.

Unlike Islam, Zoroastrians are a non-proselytizing faith. They believe that all religions are equally good and that a person can achieve salavation in his or her own faith by
believing in God, living a good life and opposing the forces of evil. As a matter of fact, it is very difficult for someone who is not born a Zoroastrian to become one, and they are not accepted at all Zoroastrian congregations.


Zoroastrians believe in an immortal soul, a judgement upon death (where the author gets his bridge over fire from, and the fall into the fire is based on the evil deeds, words and thoughts a person has had during his/her lifeltime and has nothing to do with "stumbling"), a resurrection of the dead, a last judgement after a final battle between the forces of evil and goodness, after which even those who were evil will be purified in fire and saved.

They also believe in angels and a series of promised saviours. Some people theorize that the three wise men were Zoroastrian Priests.

If any of this sounds familiar, it should.

Some theologians believe that much of what the Jews included in Judaism and later trasnferred to Christianity was the product of their exposure to Zoroastrianism during the Babylonian captivity.

Once the major religion of ancient Persia, it has been persecuted and destroyed by militant Islam, some of its followers having been forced to flee to India (the Parsees) and those few who remain in Iran, practise their religion in secret, at their own peril. The religion is dying, and there are only a few thousand practitioners worldwide - thanks mainly to Islam.

There is NO connection between Zoroastrianism and Islam. On the contrary, there is a substantial connection between Zoroastrianism and Christianity and Judaism.

[ArGee]

With all due respect, most religions attempt to set a standard for proper behavior and ask the adherents to live up to that standard. While there are cads and scoundrels in all religions, most who follow one actually attempt to modify their own behavior to live up to the ideals of the religion.

There is the occasional scam artist who creates a religion to justify behaving exactly as he pleases, but even his followers will attempt to modify their behavior to conform to his new norm.

I don't think your sarcasm actually contributes to the discussion. I would enjoy a real conversation with you, though.

Shalom.

[ArGee]

If there exists a plane of existence beyond what we see, then at these moments of transcendance, whether hugging, feeling solidarity, sex, or religious trance, we are in fact merging at a plane which our pitiful scientific instruments cannot yet measure. Those who have reached enlightenment, Gautama, Jesus, "Osiris" can exist in this plane, and others, at will...

You say "If there exists..."

Is this what you believe?

Shalom.

[chilepepper]

Absolutely, but then again there is nothing absolute in this soapbubble called life that travels through time.

[O.C. - Old Cracker]

Why does man obsess over religion? Either one accepts the evidence for absolute truth, or not. If not, then there is the freedom to avoid all the trouble of a search. You know, just make it up along the way.

However, if one accepts that certain truths are truer than others, then one should have a compelling need to search for their origin. Start with one truth that stands the test, is true for all men in all situations, and build from there.

If, after searching, you honestly decide that you are the center of the universe, then build a shrine to yourself and spread the good news. However, if after taking stock of yourself and the world around you, you are still convinced that no man holds the answer to this life, start investigating the various religious systems of the world. Be objective, do not be seduced by flattery or coerced through guilt. Stack them alongside each other and begin by culling the obvious frauds. Continue sifting until only the truth is left.

If, as some religious practitioners proclaim, your selection of a belief system determines your eternal abode, then take great pains to choose correctly. It seems that most people expend more labor over decisions of marriage, career, and overall pleasure, than they do on a belief system.

[Nachum]

Judaism for one.

Judaism has a code of law, replete with remedies for injured parties.

There is neither excusing, pardening, nor promotion of behavior. There is (are?) a complete set of positive and negetive precepts. Now, if you want to call all of that "excusing, pardoning and promoting", that would be fine. A gross generalization, but fine.

But then you could define traffic tickets the same way.

[ArGee]

Absolutely,

Thank you.

Now, based on your definition of religion as stated above (and please forgive my attempt at crude humor), do you think that religion is created by man or by the cosmos?

Shalom.

[chilepepper]

Most definitely created by man, although one could also argue that the Cosmos is religion by its very existence, and is that which defines what religion is, a noumena unknowable by this pitiful species...

[pgkdan]

Who knows if it is the same God. *YOU* certainly do not.

Yes I do...however I think you're lost.

[chilepepper]

Yes I do...however I think you're lost

Well, certainly you lose less sleep than I do thinking about what it all means...

[ArGee]

Most definitely created by man, although one could also argue that the Cosmos is religion by its very existence, and is that which defines what religion is, a noumena unknowable by this pitiful species...

OK, then that is why I have difficulty discussing religious issues with those of your philosophy.

For me, religion is like physics, a branch of study. It is our effort to understand what is as opposed to what is not. It is something that is open to scrutiny, evaluation of its claims, and ultimately either acceptance or rejection.

In that sense a religion can actually be said to be valid or invalid no matter how good it makes a person feel.

This is not a safe way to think, as I run the risk of being wrong even when being wrong makes me feel good. But I have a theory that life is ultimately better when it conforms to reality.

Shalom.