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Christmas Before Christ? The Surprising Story
United Church of God ^ | 12/200 | Jerold Aust

Posted on 12/21/2002 11:21:49 AM PST by DouglasKC

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To: DallasMike
Of course they apply to me -- they apply to all of us. But what does that have to do with the issue we're discussing? You're using 2sheep's circular reasoning.

I really do know where your unbelief is coming from because I was there not to terribly long ago. The thought that really opened up my mind was that the most godless, anti-relgious people in America celebrate Christmas in almost the exact same fashion as most Christians do. That told me right there who had won in the battle to Christianize pagan holidays.

181 posted on 12/23/2002 5:49:16 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: LiteKeeper
For a time, the celebration of Christmas was even outlawed by the various churches, particularly because there was no Biblical basis for it.

Then they should have also outlawed their own church buildings since there is no Biblical basis for them.

The New Testament is full of references against organized religion as now practiced.

182 posted on 12/23/2002 6:01:56 PM PST by leadhead
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To: DouglasKC
You need to do a real bible study on it...you'll find it fascinating.

Acutally, I have. I've done a word-by-word study on the book of Romans from start to finish.

Romans is explicit on the purpose of the law (which contains your Jewish holy days): "We have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so thatwe serve, in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6). The old laws no longer are a sword suspended over the neck of the Christian, but are done away with. In ancient Greek culture, the child, once he reaches the age of majority, does not revert back to his pedagogue (The NASB renders this Greek word "tutor" in Gal 3:24).

The holy days had their fulfillment in Christ -- their purpose was to be a kind of divine advertisement of what was to come. For instance, the Day of Atonement siginified the future propitiatory death of Christ. Once Christ's propitiatory death has come, what need have we for the feast day? That's sort of like downloading the trailer of a movie you have the DVD for -- completely superfluous.

183 posted on 12/23/2002 6:08:47 PM PST by jude24
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To: All
God help us.

Is there a conservative forum that is not dominated by Bush-bots and fundamentalist Christians?

If so, please direct me there.

184 posted on 12/23/2002 6:24:24 PM PST by iconoclast
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To: jude24
The holy days had their fulfillment in Christ -- their purpose was to be a kind of divine advertisement of what was to come. For instance, the Day of Atonement siginified the future propitiatory death of Christ. Once Christ's propitiatory death has come, what need have we for the feast day? That's sort of like downloading the trailer of a movie you have the DVD for -- completely superfluous.

No doubt they were shadows of what is to come and memorial of what has come. But Paul didn't understand that they were done away with.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

They ARE a shadow of things to come. Paul was writing how many years after Christ death here? Thirty or so? Thirty or so years have gone by and Paul thinks the holy days and sabbaths ARE, not were shadows of things to come.

But what's really interesting is if you take out the words, punctuation and numbered verses that translators add to the greek to make it more "clear":

Then do not let anyone judge you in eating or in drinking or in part of a feast, or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which are a shadow of coming things, but the body of Christ.

What does it say? Kind of changes the whole meaning when read as it was originally. It seems to be saying that you shouldn't let anyone judge your for how you observe God's Holy Days except for the body of Christ. Your brethren. And the greek here isn't referring to any other days except the ones God designated as holy.

Believe it or not.

185 posted on 12/23/2002 6:40:46 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: iconoclast
Is there a conservative forum that is not dominated by Bush-bots and fundamentalist Christians? If so, please direct me there.

lol...come on in the waters fine!

186 posted on 12/23/2002 6:42:29 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DallasMike
You can't be serious. The two biggest events of the year for modern "christians" are not kept by any christians in the bible. And you wanna play pretend me not?

You know so little that you actually have ignored all references to the prolific admonishments of such practices.

A prison of fools, self deception be thy name.
187 posted on 12/23/2002 6:43:48 PM PST by ALS
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To: DallasMike
"Being persecuted for your faith is one thing; being corrected because you're preaching silliness and calling it sound doctrine is another thing altogether."

You just described nearly every pulpit in America.

188 posted on 12/23/2002 6:46:07 PM PST by ALS
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To: ALS
The two biggest events of the year for modern "christians" are not kept by any christians in the bible.

Read what Jude24 said. Then read my proof in 2sheep logic that using the internet is a sin. See if you can understand the logical fallacy.

And please don't use the word Christian in quotes when referring to me. I don't doubt your salvation, just your common sense.

189 posted on 12/23/2002 6:47:56 PM PST by DallasMike
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To: Eagle Eye
I would be hard pressed to find anything not previously used by someone. But what if our customs have been tainted: they are redeemed in Christ, just as we ourselves are redeemed. I do not worship my greenery nor my candlelight, nor do I see it as a symbol of some pagan deity: rather, greenery I bring in as a symbol of my Lord's triumphant life, even through the winter of sin's gloom, and the candle as a symbol of His triumphant light, scattering all the darkness of death. Certainly, evergreens and candles have been misused: but does this mean I must reject them as evil? No! They were made by God, and even if they had nothing symbolic at all, and served no other purpose than to look nice, I would still bring them in my house and give God thanks for their loveliness.

And some things are hardly pagan at all: Santa, for one, who, while taken to extremes by an unbelieving world eager for something that seems to dissasociate with the holiday's true significance, still embodies the generosity and eagerness to give all believers are to have. Oh, you might come up with some dim association with Nimrod or some other figure: but what element of our faith can you not do that too?

But, I will say, if you choose, for matters of conscience, to not celebrate this season, I say all the power to you. It takes a firm conscience, though I doubt its wisdom, to "resist". I hope you do not swear off all celebration, even if you disagree on the time and mode (which is quite all right)- for we have all the reason to celebrate and be joyful!

190 posted on 12/23/2002 7:03:50 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: DallasMike
Why do you lean so heavily on logic when discussing the bible? Is not that what Satan leaned on in the desert with Christ? Common sense is meant to convey obviousness within the context of the subject at hand. A dung beetle will fair little in applying its logic in how to navigate in a lava field. There's a time and place for all. Sometimes you have to think outside the collection plate. Stick with us here skippy.

As for your problem with the word "christian".
Eliminate your habit of cursory reading of my post and your problem will disappear. You assigned yourself to the word, not me.
191 posted on 12/23/2002 7:04:38 PM PST by ALS
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To: DouglasKC
You utter the typical confusions of the modern escapist mentality.

The bible is filled with pretypes. Mirrors, reflections and shadows of things to come. None of which lose their power, their relevancy and their hold, because they are.

Christ said He did not come to do away with the law, and indeed abided by it. As did His apostles, yet all we hear from the escapists is what a prison it is to follow in His footsteps and to notice His lead.

Satan could utter the same belief system, and sure enough he does.

wake up
192 posted on 12/23/2002 7:11:48 PM PST by ALS
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To: ALS
One has to use a certain amount of deduction on these sorts of matters, because the Bible nowhere specifically addresses whether or not we should celebrate Christmas. It neither specifically ordains it nor condemns it. You infer from what is said one way, I infer another.
193 posted on 12/23/2002 7:13:15 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: ALS
You utter the typical confusions of the modern escapist mentality.

lol...you need to check who you addressed this to...

194 posted on 12/23/2002 7:17:04 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: 2sheep
I've just posted the scripture and you have yet again DENIED IT.

A lie from the pit of Hell.

I denied, and will continue to deny, your willful abuse of Scripture, intended to lay burdens too heavy to be born and lead us back into bondage to the curse of the Law.

Repent of your foolish sophistry; repent of your legalism.

I posted the whole verse but you chose to cut off the parts that offend you.

Another lie.

I focused it on idolatry because you did.

You also cut the above verse off before the next word in the list of bad fruit:  witchcraft.

Do you want to accuse me of something, heretic?

195 posted on 12/23/2002 7:20:04 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: DouglasKC
You are reading this from a 21st century modern american viewpoint that does not believe that God created any days as holy or sanctified.

Are we to believe that under some other viewpoint, "One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," means that we must observe certain days and must not observe others? Postmodernism, anyone?

196 posted on 12/23/2002 7:26:36 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: iconoclast
There's one here.
197 posted on 12/23/2002 7:31:41 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: DouglasKC
Perhaps I clicked on the wrong name.
198 posted on 12/23/2002 7:36:49 PM PST by ALS
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To: Cleburne
The bible says nothing about xmas? ya sure??

Jeremiah 10 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go.

199 posted on 12/23/2002 7:40:10 PM PST by ALS
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To: ALS
Why do you lean so heavily on logic when discussing the bible? Is not that what Satan leaned on in the desert with Christ?

There's true logic and there's false logic. Satan relied on false logic in his temptation. Jesus relied on true logic to rebut him. I've demonstrated 2sheep's circular reasoning against celebrating Christmas to be false logic (and no, I'm not comparing 2sheep to Satan).

God is the author of logic and it would be hard to live in a universe where things didn't function in a logical, orderly fashion. Jesus used logic in his parables and Paul employed logic as pretty much his sole method of argument in his epistles.

So why are you so against using logic? Could it be because you recognize that your position is illogical?

200 posted on 12/23/2002 7:43:12 PM PST by DallasMike
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