Posted on 12/14/2002 10:22:42 AM PST by arete
---------------------------------
At the time the economy of this nation was highly independent. There's no reason to believe Smoot-Hawley had any major effect, particularly relative to the other factors taking place. We would do well to re-create that independence today without making the other mistakes of that period. The credit economic gambling game bubble of that period was bound to burst catastrophically.
That's great - and I am all for it - but in doing so, we have decimated our country. It sounds like too big a price. Now if it had happened naturally, that would have been one thing. But we know it didn't. We know it happened because greedy politicians in hand with equally greedy businesses used tax dollars to cause a flood of our manufacturing to go there. In doing so, we have exported military secrets and have not only raised their economy, but their military prowess as well.
You can't have a wealthy country where the rule of law is non-existent, and party officials are free to change the rules on a whim. You can't have a wealthy country where markets are controlled by some central authority, instead of being free to operate as they will. They think they can keep that genie in the bottle, but they're so wrong it's not even funny - it's just a measure of how little they understand about what it takes to become rich like Americans. But they'll figure it out eventually.
You see to me, you have just described America in the last 15 years. We have completely ignored and twisted our laws. WE have had government entities completely overstepping their authority. WE have seen our borders completely destroyed and illegals allowed to abuse our education, medical, legal, and social services. So just look around you, most of the laws that are being obeyed are because many of us are just law abiding people. For most that are not law abiding, there is no law.
WE are more concerned that someone may have been a segregationist 40 years ago (no matter what he had done since) than we are that our borders are non existant, that terrorists are coming across our borders, that criminals are coming across our borders, that N. Korea is rumbling, China is rumbling, and we have a lot of people out of work, and we are going to war with Iraq. Have we spent much time discussing that - no we have been hand wringing over something a man said - not what he did - but what he said for goodness sakes.
My point if this country can become what it has after having known freedom for so long - what makes you think government power over there won't keep it that way.
And by the time they figure it out, it'll be too late - they'll have to choose between being authoritarian communists, or getting rich
Once again, most authoritarian communists (those in control) are already rich and do you think they are going to give up their power, money, and control to allow the peasants to be rich. I don't think so. It may happen, but that will be after a purging and then what we will do for goods while that is happening? Will we take sides? We will have to go in and protect those factories?
Then competing with the Chinese will be something to keep us all awake at night. Until then, what I see is that they've started down a road that can only mean the end of communism in China.
I don't think it will be the end of communism - but I do agree they will be a force to reckoned with soon and very soon. They do not need to become a capitalist nation to do that. All they need is a few more years, the US government to build them a few more factories, give them a few more military secrets, and a little more education. There are some people who post here who believe if you are out of a job it is because you are lazy, ignorant, uneducated and just need to get out there a find a job the Chinese can't do. I want to hear their reasoning when the Chinese get started on their jobs.
I am not asking the government put tariffs on anything - unless as I said, the other country has tariffs. That sounds only fair to me. What I also don't want is our government using tax dollars to build factories and sending jobs overseas. What are they thinking? Yes, some people have made huge fortunes from this, but many, many have had their lives ruined because the government went into business - not because of the forces of the free market. On top of that, add their stance on our borders and the illegals and you have our government destroying the American people. It is just that simple. If the foreign trade had happened naturally, without government largesse, it would have happened much more slowly and this country would have had time to adjust. But you can't export a huge chunk of our manufacturing and importing millions of people to live off the workers who are left and to say we are doing fine - just makes no sense.
I hope I haven't seemed insulting - I don't intend to insult anyone - just argue an idea. But the idea that we simply continue to spend more of or money that we take in and in return for all that money we get some quite often, inferior goods makes no sense. When my children were very small, they could never understand that I had no money if I still had checks in the checkbook. To them, just write a check.
And you heard it here first.
I see you have thought about it - but it is not a new theory - I remember hearing it many years ago, when they thought it was a good idea to get into all these so-called free trade deals. That and the fact it would stop illegal immigration - remember that? Well, we see that didn't happen and I don't think their other theory will work out either. WE were going to make good little capitalists out of the entire world and that would bring peace. It sounds good, but once again, there are people out there that have other reasons for living besides making money. Just because this country has adopted the attitude that the most important thing in the world is to make money, we think everyone else does.
--------------------------
The arguments are there, and ongoing.
There's a nest of you and several other clowns here who get you jollies off and feel superior in suckering people into arguments and head games in which you employ inane denial. I woud be in favor of our getting banned because this place needs a good house-cleaning. However, I believe you people serve a beneficial purpose. Other people here can use the experience of recognizing head games when they see them and learning how to deal with them. For my part, I'm not interested in getting suckered in again.
But I don't think we do know that. What more likely happened is that the folks in those certain industries didn't realize that the world was getting smaller, and priced themselves right out of the labor market. Why should a textile company pay $15 an hour for laborers when they can go to the next state and pay $10 an hour? And why should they pay $10 an hour when they can go to the next country over and pay $3 an hour? We take it for granted that we can shop around and look for the best deal available, you and I. Why should I pay $2.99 for a gallon of milk at the supermarket around the corner when I know that the supermarket a few miles away will sell me the same gallon of milk for $1.99? Why shouldn't the people who run businesses have the same freedom that you and I take for granted?
You see to me, you have just described America in the last 15 years. We have completely ignored and twisted our laws. WE have had government entities completely overstepping their authority. WE have seen our borders completely destroyed and illegals allowed to abuse our education, medical, legal, and social services.
Those are purely domestic issues, though. There were illegal immigrants long before there was free trade, and there will be illegal immigrants long after free trade is implemented. The solution to problems like those is right here at home, not in China. The Chinese didn't cause those problems, and getting up in their faces won't fix them.
My point if this country can become what it has after having known freedom for so long - what makes you think government power over there won't keep it that way.
Because people with a stake have something to fight for. Who is likely to fight more fiercely - a peasant owned by the state, or a man defending his own home? Once the average Joe Chopsticks gets a taste of real material prosperity, he isn't going to give it up voluntarily, and not without a fight. The communist party thinks that they can make people materially wealthy, but that they'll continue being good little proletariat sheep anyway. That's just wrong - the communists run the show because you have millions concerned with where their next meal is coming from. When that's no longer a problem for them, they'll turn their attention to the other things they want in life, like a little taste of freedom.
Once again, most authoritarian communists (those in control) are already rich and do you think they are going to give up their power, money, and control to allow the peasants to be rich. I don't think so.
They don't have a choice. The last time the Chinese had such a class divide, the communists rose up and smashed the mandarins. A nation composed of a few elite power brokers ruling over the 99% of the population condemned to serfdom is not sustainable. They simply cannot afford to have a few tens of thousands of rich people lording over more than a billion peasants - at some point, those peasants are gong to realize that there's not a damn bit of difference between the revlutionary vanguard and the imperial court they thought they were getting rid of. And then the peasants will do what peasants always do in those situations - they'll go out and start hanging party officials from trees.
They simply can't afford not to improve the material lot of the average Chinese person over there. They simply don't have a choice. There are too many Chinese folks who get out to the outside world, bringing back reports of how remarkably easy life is in the West compared to China, and why can't we have that too? Those kinds of questions are death to authoritarian states.
I don't think it will be the end of communism - but I do agree they will be a force to reckoned with soon and very soon.
FWIW, you're not alone in thinking that way. But I think it will be the death of communism over there. Sooner or later, they won't be able to reconcile what they're doing with this ideology that they ostensibly believe in. And at that point, the ideology will be the thing that gets trashed, not the material comforts. They're human, after all.
Nobody really foresaw the sudden collapse of the Soviet Union, either. And anyone who says they did is basically lying to you. But in retrospect, it was really inevitable - the only real surprise was how fast it all happened. It may be that Chinese communism will disintegrate overnight in just the same way. I tend to think it'll gradually just fade away, but you never know. But it will die - as a system of government, as a system of economics, it is broken in so many ways that it's not a viable way of organizing a society. Obviously, the Chinese would disagree with me, but I have a whole long list of failed communist countries to point to, and they can point me to zero success stories.
There are some people who post here who believe if you are out of a job it is because you are lazy, ignorant, uneducated and just need to get out there a find a job the Chinese can't do.
I don't really believe that, though. I think that a lot of people are out of a job because the world changed when they weren't looking. But trying to change the world back to what it used to be - the cure is worse than the disease. In any free-market society, change is constant. Companies are born, they grow, and they die. And sometimes whole industries die - almost always, it's better to let them die, so that resources can be more productively allocated by the market, rather than trying to prop up industries that are inefficient.
I hope I haven't seemed insulting - I don't intend to insult anyone - just argue an idea.
Certainly not compared to some - as you can see, this is an issue that creates strong feelings on both sides. I don't take this position because I hate my own country, or I think we "deserve" to lose manufacturing jobs, or anything like that. I take this position because I love my country, as much as anyone here, and I know that in the long run, this will lead to bigger and better things. In the long run, we'll be better off than we are now.
When my children were very small, they could never understand that I had no money if I still had checks in the checkbook. To them, just write a check.
The balance of trade makes things look rather worse than they actually are. If you really want something analogous to your household budget, go look up the current accounts balance for the US. It's not quite as miserable as the balance of trade might lead you to think.
I see you have thought about it - but it is not a new theory - I remember hearing it many years ago, when they thought it was a good idea to get into all these so-called free trade deals.
It still is. NAFTA hasn't been as wonderful as some of its proponents would have led you to believe, but it hasn't been the disaster for the US that opponents predicted - on the whole, it's probably been a slight gain for the US. As for the Chinese, they only just joined WTO last year - have patience. It'll work itself out just fine.
Just because this country has adopted the attitude that the most important thing in the world is to make money, we think everyone else does.
They usually say they don't care about money right up to the point where they get a little. Then the tune changes a bit ;)
I'll take your word for it - you've certainly done a masterful job of camouflaging your arguments in your posts to me.
However, I believe you people serve a beneficial purpose. Other people here can use the experience of recognizing head games when they see them and learning how to deal with them. For my part, I'm not interested in getting suckered in again.
LOL. When all else fails, when you finally have nothing to say, just pretend that presenting an actual argument would be somehow beneath you.
Well, whatever. I sort of doubt that anyone is actually fooled by that old, worn-out rhetorical gimmick, but if you change your mind and decide you want to run with the big dogs after all, drop me a line ;)
--------------------
Yup. That's about the way it is with your entire scene. You're fundamentally a little kid here for laughs.
When you're ready to run with the big dogs, drop me a line...
--------------------
I may do that. Then you can sit on the sidelines and watch. However, I don't think you are worth the effort.
The globalists have now destroyed jobs of technical engineers in America, let's return the favor.
As for Fuji being better able to compete, that may be true, but any company can compete on price if they keep their prices down because of lower costs subsidized by a government. No problem!
I know that Japanese engineers were invited to Kodak thanks to a stupid management decision early on in the 60's and 70's to "see how Kodak does it." They came in large groups and learned a lot about film and camera technology that they copied and enhanced. So Kodak was supremely dumb while trying to be good friends to Japan, at US government's behest. It was a case of extreme industrial espionage and they did it well.
-----------------------
No gimmics involved. The arguments were presented and accepted by people who who weren't goofs there to play mind games.
Hey, if it's such a great argument, you should be able to destroy me pretty easily, right? So let's hear it...
1) Excessive taxation. Too much wealth is siphoned off into the non-productive goobermint sector.
2) Excessive regulation. Every aspect of business today is regulated out the wazoo. That adds overhead in businesses to cope with regulatory crapola.
3) The welfare state. The entitlement mentality has captured many of our younger folks, who believe in Goofy's dictum "Oh, the world owes me a livin'." Their work ethics are poor, and their will to succeed sapped.
4) Crappy education. Contrary to the mind-numbed-robot-pushing-a-button stereotype, manufacturing companies make money with smart, aggressive, energetic, cooperating individuals. Chumps who can't read, can't spell, can't do elementary math and who practice groupthink aren't the stuff from which leaders arise.
5) Less than worthless management. The heyday of the up-through-the-ranks leader has been replaced with that of the MBA - Master Bullshit Artist. Many "managers" haven't the remotest idea what their people do, what's critical in their product, etc. How can they lead?
Despite all these negatives, those of us who work in American manufacturing are the most productive in the world, and have the fastest growing productivity.
Give us some help with numbers 1 through 4, and number 5 will take care of itself.
---------------------------
Nothing is going to destroy you physically. You are like the telemarketers who keep calling me despite the fact I tell them my line is restricted, or the town halfwit who believes he has a genius sense of humor because people laugh wherever he goes. As long as you have food and water you will play your mind games and attempt to sucker people into them. The continuation has nothing to do with the correctness of your position, but only with the high you get.
Having said that, you know where we both stand. Find someone else to mess with.
Yep. I have a cogent argument, and you got nothing. Have a nice day.
Good Grief - try and find a cordless power tool other than DeWalt not made in China. It's an impossible task.
The best part of our economy - the best part of our country, we've shipped off to communist slave labor in China. Courtesy of Bush.
NAFTA has been good for some - but overall it has been bad for America. Not counting the pure economic loss due to job relocation, it has been a shield for drug smuggling, terrorist smuggling and illegal smuggling (or just walking across). While those do have a negative economic effect, the worse effect cannot be measured in dollars.
The illegals have always come - but the amount was infintestimal compared to what we have now. Not a drop in the bucket. They did come, they worked, many went home. THe ones who stayed, obeyed the laws, paid their own way. Not so these now. Please do not fall for the line that we have always had illegals, so what is happening now is not a problem. That is just another of those statements that needs clarification. If you truly are too young to remember, or you live in an area that has not suffered from this, please listen to those who do live it and are paying the price.
Now China is entirely different than the Soviet Union. If Reagan had made them favored trading 'partners', built factories for them, given them military secrets, flooded their country with American dollars - they would never have split. I don't see the peasants becoming rich and rising up. For the peasants to become rich, some of the wealth of the rulers would have to become diminished. They would have to pay them more. So what I think will happen, they will allow some of the population to become wealthy and they, in turn, will keep the peasants down.
As for idealogy remaing alive and well after wealth - look at Saudi Arabia. It seems everyone, outside of Washington, realizes the Saudis have a big hand in the terrorist movement. They are using their great wealth to further it. Now these people were made super wealthy through American capitalim's development of their oil resources - yet that wealth has not stopped them from using it to further and spread their idealogy.
I realize with all the corruption and deceit in our government that is just so apparent to everyone it is a hard sell to convince someone they should think of this country and not themselves. I can't even accomplish that with my own children. They love their families, they work hard, believe in God (sorta), and that is about it. It is unrealistic to care for your country and want it to be rebuilt and once again be a free country - probably. I just don't know any other way.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.