“The Israelis now possess all the nuclear secrets of the United States.”

http://www.sobran.com/ ^ | 19 Nov 2002 | Sobran

[SauronOfMordor]

Are we such bad students, then? Talmud allegedly teaches us to kill Gentiles, but never once have done this? Lack of intelligence on our part? I doubt it, considering the record of Nobels is science.

From before the time of Christ until the re-establishment of Israel, Jews were never in a position of legal power over Gentiles, being under the rule of various powers (Romans, Christians, Muslims). A casual reading of the Talmud (I've read the Mishnah, been working on the rest on and off) will show that, whenever Gentiles are mentioned it is in a context of distrust or dislike (depending on which side is in power)

[SauronOfMordor]

If you honestly think the Talmud is more insulting than the Koran regarding non-believers you're pretty far out there.

Having read both, I do think the Talmud is more insulting to gentiles. The Koran is very explicit in orders to kill and conquer non-Muslims, but it does not go out of its way to insult them. Basicly, due to the size of the Talmud (many times that of the Koran), there's more room there for somebody who goes to the trouble of looking (which is why it is part of the Talmud that Gentiles are forbidden study of it under penalty of death ("A Nochri [gentile] that learns Torah is Chayav Misah [deserving of death]" -- Sanhedrin 59)

[Billy_bob_bob]

Great graphic!

[Bernard Marx]

B: The Yalta Betrayal [Felix Wittmer] Caldwell Press, ID, 1953. First Chapter [Can be hard to find - out of print for years, and FDR's acolytes seem on a "search and destroy" mission for any/all remaining copies.]

You might have better luck if you looked for Caxton Press, Caldwell, ID. Caxton was (is?) the only printer of note in Caldwell. Just a bit of long-remembered trivia.

[TopQuark]

Firstly, one does not need legal power over someone else to kill: hatred and anger will suffice. Despite the massacres, expulsions, and foreced conversions, Europe has not recorded a single case of a Jewish community taken revange on its neighbors.

Secondly, by the time Talmud was completed, all sorts of bad things were done by Gentiles to the Jews. Mere distrust in response to that is not too vicious, if you ask me.

[rmlew]

1. A little bit of context is needed. We are talking about the period either of Roman occupation where the Herodians were interfereing (and occasionally killing) the Sanhedrin, or after the fall of Judea where the Romans were suppressing Judaism and deJudaising Judea.

2. Commentaries do not have the wait of Law and can be ignored. In this case, they are.
Israel does not treat murderer's differently based on religion.

[monkeyshine]

You can't compare the Talmud to the Koran. The Koran is their bible, the holiest of their books. Almost all Muslims study the Koran.

The Talmud is not a bible. It is a collection of opinions on the Oral Law. Many of the opinions in the Talmud are not accepted, but are offered as points of discussion, historical reference or contrast. Very few Jews study it.

[SauronOfMordor]

Firstly, one does not need legal power over someone else to kill: hatred and anger will suffice. Despite the massacres, expulsions, and foreced conversions, Europe has not recorded a single case of a Jewish community taken revange on its neighbors.

For the duration of the Diaspora, Jews in Europe have existed in small, dispersed and disarmed communities, totally dependent upon the protection of the local nobility for their survival. This would act to both increase the level of (unexpressed) resentment, and make any attempt to act upon it suicidal.

In the 20th Century, Jews had a disproportionate presence in various Communist revolutions (eg Trotsky(Lev Bronstein), first head of the Red Army); Grigori Zinoviev (Radomyslsky) head of the Communist International (Comintern); Bela Kun [Aaron Cohen]), so things were changed a bit in Eastern Europe in the first half of the 20th Century.

Note that I'm not speaking against Jewishness (My wife is Jewish, and so my children would also be considered Jewish), but about the corrosive effect of Talmudicly-shaped attitudes.

[SauronOfMordor]

1. A little bit of context is needed. We are talking about the period either of Roman occupation where the Herodians were interfereing (and occasionally killing) the Sanhedrin, or after the fall of Judea where the Romans were suppressing Judaism and deJudaising Judea.

The Babylonia Talmud was composed in the period from the 3rd to 6th Centuries, long after the Romans had dispersed Israel, and when the Roman Empire had become Christian in nature.

Commentaries do not have the wait of Law and can be ignored.

So, you're saying that Talmud is not authoritative in matters of Jewish Law? How many Rabbis can you get to publicly agree with you? The rabbinical references that I've seen disagree with you:

Mishneh Torah was the first, and is still the only, full codification of all of the divine laws of the special covenant between the LORD YHWH and Israel as well as the general Noachide covenant between the LORD YHWH and the Gentiles (no, we do not mean the so-called "New Testament"), with all of the rabbinic legislation developed in accordance with those laws: for all people, for all places, and for all times (until the reestablishment of the Sanhedrin in Israel--may we be blessed to reestablish it, in our time!).

[SauronOfMordor]

The Talmud is not a bible. It is a collection of opinions on the Oral Law. Many of the opinions in the Talmud are not accepted, but are offered as points of discussion, historical reference or contrast. Very few Jews study it.

I'm sure that not too many Jews study the Talmud. I would not be surprised to learn that a large percentage of Jews don't study Torah either (beyond what might be needed to pass your Bar Mitzvah).

Are you saying that one could become a rabbi without extensive Talmudic study? Would you say that extensive Talmudic study would have an effect on a rabbi's viewpoints, and how he communicates the requirements of Jewish Law to his fellow Jews?

[TopQuark]

You still miss the point: when people are anguished AND given the right to dispise and feel superior, as you allege, these feelings heat to a boiling point, even if it is suicidal.

Yet, this has never happened. In contrast to what you perport, the answer lies closer to another simple fact: until very recently, most Jewish people have not seen the blood of a chicken, let alone letting blood of a human. Life is holy to that extent.

I do not know what you mean by Jewish and, if your wife is such why she cannot explain to you these things. But it is rather interesting to see a person with a Jewish wife to promulgate anti-Semitic libels. I refer specifically to "Jews had a disproportionate presence in various Communist revolutions."

Is it correct to say that Christians had a disproportionate presence in Gestapo and the Nazi party? Of course not. These people were from Christian families, but they ceased to be Christians even before they joined the party. In addition, they did not act as Christians, and murdered not only Jews but Catholics as well.

WHy is it, then, that the same does not apply to the Jews? You quote almost verbatim from white supremacist web sites. I am not suggesting, of course, that you subscribe to such views, but the company you keep surely should raise questions in your mind.

On those sites you can read how this or that communist with the Jewish name gave orders to destroy some church. This all well may be true. But he also gave orders to destroy sinagogues. These people, whether from a Christian or Jewish families, have changed their religious affiliations: they no longer subscribed to Judeo-Christian values but believed in man-G-d and Marxism. Just like the Nazis.

I have not herd anyone at all talking about those "d-maned Christian Nazis." Everyone knows that they were not Christian. Ah, but the Joooos: once a Jew alsways a Jew, right?

Your children will not be Jewish, not matter what they are "considered." With a father with the objectivity such as yours, they will inherit the negative double standard with which you analyze these matters. THey will be vert embarassed one day that there mother is Jewish.

[jamaksin]

Yes, of course you are correct. Thank you.

A bout of "sticky fingers" of late ...

[Walkin Man]

"The Israelis now possess all the nuclear secrets of the United States."

Yeah and they are in the right place to strike our mutual enemies! Kick some muslim terrorist *ss for us Israel!

[Bella_Bru]

Sobran ping.

[Bella_Bru]

My bad. I should have said, "Sobran the Moron" ping. It sort of rhymes.

[Republic of Texas]

If I were the PM of Israel, I would value my alliance with the US, but I would not TRUST the US. Half the people here would hand them over to the Muslims in a heartbeat.

[SauronOfMordor]

You quote almost verbatim from white supremacist web sites.

As far as I recall, the only site I referenced which was not an Israeli-based rabbinical site (for the various Talmudic refs) was the thing on Bela Kuhn, which I got from OnWar.com, which is a history site specializing on the WWII period

But it is rather interesting to see a person with a Jewish wife to promulgate anti-Semitic libels. I refer specifically to "Jews had a disproportionate presence in various Communist revolutions." ...Is it correct to say that Christians had a disproportionate presence in Gestapo and the Nazi party? Of course not.

The truth is not a libel

Around the time of the Russian Revolution, the Jewish population of Russia was about 5 million, a relatively tiny percentage of the Russian population, yet they composed a much larger percentage of the early Communist Party. Take a look in any history book, or the Encyclopedia Judaica, or even David Horowitz's memoirs of growing up as a "red diaper baby", and you will notice that Socialist/Communist/Leftist Jews are the norm, rather than the exception. Even take a look at the percentage of Jewish Democrats vs Jewish Republicans. Pointing this out is no more anti-Semitism than commenting on the "pedophile Catholic priest" problem is anti-Catholic.

Taking a look at Jewish Heritage Online comments in passing:

It is equally no exaggeration to say that almost all the great movements in modern Jewish history are reflected in Jewish parody. Hasidism, Reform Judaism. Socialism, Zionism and many minor phases of Jewish thought — all have brought forth their own parodists.

[SauronOfMordor]

Correction on my prior post: I was referring mostly to the time of the Russian Revolution thru the 1930's. The latest generation seems to be following Horowitz's lead and becoming more conservative/libertarian in outlook

[monkeyshine]

I think it depends on your sect. I'm pretty sure you don't need to be a Talmud scholar to be a reform rabbi.

I looked at the link you put up. It appears that while one comment said that gentiles who study torah should be put to death (accepting your translation), another comment said that gentiles who study torah will be rewarded like the high priest. How is that an insult?

[monkeyshine]

Socialist/Communist/Leftist Jews are the norm, rather than the exception.

And why do you think that is so?

Is it because they were innately viscious?

Or is it because they viewed communism, the renunciation of God, as an equalizing force among man -- thus ending their "oppressed" or "different" status from the majority of the population.

In ancient days there were "hellenized" Jews which acted like the ancient Greeks. They did not act like Jews. Some even had their penis altered to look like they weren't circumcized in order to fit into Greek society. I think the phenomenon is the same. It ain't easy being different from the majority of the people, and it's not surprising to see Jews trying to erace those differences. So whether it was hellenization, communization, or assimilation... the sentiment is probably the same.