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Between Science and Spirituality
The Chronicle of Higher Education ^ | Nov. 29, 2002 | John Horgan

Posted on 12/07/2002 9:46:51 AM PST by beckett

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To: LogicWings
If one had read Scripture many times, the restatement that fallen angels also have been known to heal would not come as any surprise or derision.

Perhaps the real key is simply to first accept Him, confess your sins in repentance, to the Father in the name (by faith and belief in His Perfect Sacrifice) of the Son, in order to be filled by the Holy Spirit who will guide you in your metaboolizing of Scripture.

Reading Scripture is the first step, after returning to fellowship with God on His grounds. After reading, comprehending and spiritually digesting the Word, it must be understood and made into an outward knowledge, or epignosis, for it to be believed,...in faith.

When a statement is made that certain extrabiblical writings are more interesting, this is an indicator that the reader is reading in their own will external or independent of God's will. Those things spiritually discerned, will merely appear foolish. Instead the reader will tend to seek to comprehend or imagine spectacular situations which merely titillate the senses or reinforce an arrogance complex of scarred soul.

The Nag Hamadi scripts pale in comparison to the depth and robust intricacies of Scripture already recognized as the canon of Scripture. By no means do I discount them as grossly untrue at present, simply because I haven't rigorously studied them, but because merely a few references in them fail to acknowledge the rich Word of God acknowledging and honoring the Holy Spirit. Accordingly, I find it much more fruitful to place the Holy Bible, or Scripture, in higher priority for study and a steady walk in faith.

261 posted on 12/13/2002 6:11:32 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: LogicWings
It seems as though you have devoted much more attention to mysticism and occultic knowledge than the Gospel or good news. Isn't it also titillating to realize that God's Word may shine on all without being hidden to allow all man to have a relationship with Him and inherit His blessings? Gnostic tendancies to attribute creation from belief at the will of man fails to address the issue,...properly. The real issue is how to remain faithful to Him, understanding His Word and placing it into reason in the soul and in rest allowing the Holy Spirit to metabolize that doctrine into an acting, walk of belief manifest outside oneself in love.
262 posted on 12/13/2002 6:18:31 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: LogicWings
..."It isn't enough to have to believe in God, we have to believe in all this too!"

The meaning of 'to believe in' as read in English translations of Scripture isn't conveyed in the above query, but another meaning appears to be confused and substituted with different tenses in the vocabulary.

When we believe in Him, we are able to receive salvation. This belief is not merely an acknowledgment of His existence. That meaning might be in the Greek word 'gnosis'. The faith in God and acceptance of His plan is made possible by the sacrificial unlimited atonement for all men of sin which caused a spiritual separation from God and physical separation of body frm soul and spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer and allows us to mature in Him, by first learning doctrine from the Word and then metabolizing that doctrine into a walk with Him, or an epignosis,...an outward knowledge, which is the belief in Him.

The understanding or gnosis of fallen angels is provided from studying Scripture and the doctrine metabolized regarding the angelic conflict, good and evil, creation and sin, provides one a further walk in Him to understand and discern the actions of deceiving persons, man and angelic.

263 posted on 12/13/2002 6:29:12 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Nogbad
Couldn't have said it better.
264 posted on 12/13/2002 6:34:44 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: LogicWings
"Then how can 'you' ever know when a healing is from God or is from a "fallen angel?"

By discerning deceiving spirits. In order to properly discern, one must first accept God on His terms, through Christ. This then allows an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. After being indwelt, is one sins, they fall out of fellowship with God. In order to return into fellowship, they must repent and confess that/those sins to the Father via Christ. This may be done today simply by prayer, in part as belief.

In this fashion the Holy Spirit is allowed to fill the believer again. From there, the believer conitinues to study the Word and understand doctrine and metabolize it further under the lead of the Holy Spirit. As one continues to mature, they are better able to discern spiritual things.

BTW, in many cases, deceiving spirits exhibit remarkably emotional and extreme variations of unholy personal behavior. They frequently aren't that hidden even though they believe they are going to control all events.

Why can't you be fooled as well as anybody else? Because only what you believe is true?

The Word of God is true. Not because of me or any other created person, but because it is the Word of God. Once one accepts and believes that Word after comprehending it and acting on that understanding and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide the spirit, one can discern properly.

Is it possible to be decieved? Of course, if one fails to walk in Him or insufficiently study the Word of God, one might easily be tempted to act independent of God's will and fall to temptation and be deceived. Good guidance is, Return to Him so He may return to you.

265 posted on 12/13/2002 6:41:57 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: LogicWings
Leonard Cohen 1968,"Suzanne"
266 posted on 12/13/2002 6:46:37 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: Cvengr
It seems as though you have devoted much more attention to mysticism and occultic knowledge than the Gospel or good news.

As I have noted elsewhere, one of my mottos is, leave no stone unturned.

Do you know who Dr.Walter Martin is?

267 posted on 12/13/2002 1:17:57 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: Cvengr
Is it possible to be decieved? Of course, if one fails to walk in Him or insufficiently study the Word of God, one might easily be tempted to act independent of God's will and fall to temptation and be deceived. Good guidance is, Return to Him so He may return to you.

And this is just the point. This is the same claim made by all, which is why I am ending this conversation. Doesn't matter whether it is Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, David Koresh, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, on and on and on, I have heard this exact same argument used to prove "We Have the Truth! - Everybody else is deceived!"

You are backing me into a corner where my only recourse is to start picking apart your belief, Christianity or both. And that is something I do not want to do. I ask questions about how one comes to certain conclusions. But what you are doing to me is preaching, and I'm not interested. I've heard it all before and there isn't anything you can tell me that I haven't heard, and probably from better. No offense intended but go preach to somebody else.

268 posted on 12/13/2002 1:28:36 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings
Yes, founder of the Christian Research Institute. Author of Kingdom of the Cults. Why do you ask?
269 posted on 12/13/2002 2:47:38 PM PST by Cvengr
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To: Cvengr
Yes, founder of the Christian Research Institute. Author of Kingdom of the Cults. Why do you ask?

He was the modern eras greatest Christian Apologist and I have listened to what must be hundreds of hours of his lectures on tape. When you implied that I have put more attention into mysticism and the occult you couldn't be more wrong. I find that I have put more study into Christianity, and the roots of the religion, than many Christians have. He was also a superb logician and one of the people responsible for my understanding and devotion to it. But he was at least honest enough to say, 'Faith is just faith, take it or leave it' and not try to prove it logically.

270 posted on 12/13/2002 3:03:05 PM PST by LogicWings
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To: LogicWings
Thanks for your reply.

My use of the term "insane" was meant less for its technical accuracy than for its satisfaction of the rhetorical requirements of the paragraph. I wanted to tie your use of the word to the paltry state of our overall knowledge despite considerable successes through "sane," rational inquiry. My point was not that it's commendable to be literally "insane," but that rational inquiry has its limits which throughout the human saga have led people to draw conclusions about existence that are not strictly rational.

BB (and Plato's) metaxy is a metaphor for the tension that exists between the physical and the spiritual, a bridge between the mundane and the ideal.

As for my speculation about "leaks way down," that might be best thought of, I think, as completely consistent with "Mind pervading the whole Universe."

Suzanne is a great tune, and Leonard a great poet and songwriter. He spends longs stretches of time in a Buddhist monastery every year, and it shows in his art.

271 posted on 12/13/2002 3:45:39 PM PST by beckett
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To: Nogbad
I understand the knot.

After thinking about #253, I will only post this one line from the article with a short comment about it. If you are lucky, your glimpse of the abyss will make this life seem more real, not less.

I wonder if a glimpse of the abyss doesn't do just the opposite and if that isn't a great thing.

272 posted on 12/13/2002 4:02:22 PM PST by keri
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To: LogicWings
By the way, my reference to Cohen comes from Anthem, a wonderful song.

The birds they sang
At the break of day
Start again
I heard them say
Don't dwell on what
Has passed away
Or what is yet to be
Ah the wars they will
Be fought again
The holy dove
She will be caught again
Bought and sold
And bought again
The dove is never free

Ring the bells
That still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

We asked for signs
The signs were sent:
The birth betrayed
The marriage spent
Yeah the widowhood
Of every government
Signs for all to see

I can't run no more
With that lawless crowd
While the killers in high places
Say their prayers out loud
But they've summoned,
They've summoned up
A thundercloud
And they're going
To hear from me

Ring the bells that still can ring...

You can add up the parts
But you won't have the sum
You can strike up the march,
There is no drum
Every heart, every heart
To love will come
But like a refugee

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack,
A crack in everything
That's how the light gets in

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack,
A crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
That's how the light gets in
That's how the light gets in

The music compliments it beautifully, so it really should be listened to.

273 posted on 12/13/2002 4:41:31 PM PST by beckett
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To: Allan
ping
274 posted on 12/13/2002 7:13:06 PM PST by Nogbad
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To: LogicWings
Were those hours of study focused on God and your relationship with Him, or upon potentially deeply hidden meaning?
275 posted on 12/14/2002 3:55:03 AM PST by Cvengr
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To: Gary Boldwater
an attempt to refute the laws of identity and causality

Remember that there is no causality at the quantum level, only probability.

God plays with dice.


BUMP

276 posted on 12/14/2002 4:35:23 AM PST by tm22721
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To: beckett
As is often the case, the more we communicate the less I find we are at odds.

I also find that people who draw conclusions that are not 'strictly rational' weren't all that rational in the first place, so it isn't the fault or 'limits' of 'rationality' but of the thought processes of the people involved. The 'insane' part is when people believe things for which there are no 'reasons' other than their belief. Much of the world is still quite insane. What we don't factor in today is that there are 'insane' philosophies, that if people believe them literally make these people insane. What these people believe is utterly counter to everything we know about reality. There are, right now, people doing rain dances. If they work, the gods heard, if they don't the gods are still angry. There is no where to go with this.

When I was spouting off once there was an English professor of a friend of mine who said to me laughing, "Everything you say is sheer poetry." When I asked him what he meant he said, "You say whatever you want to."

Poetry is words strung together because it sounds beautiful, but that doesn't make them true. I love Paul Simon's Graceland for precisely this reason. It is utterly beautiful but if you actually look at the words it is utter nonsense, there is no meaning.

The leap from 'mind pervades the whole universe' to the subject of 'spirit' leaking into it from way down is a whole other subject. But we can plod on.
277 posted on 12/14/2002 6:36:22 AM PST by LogicWings
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To: Cvengr
Were those hours of study focused on God and your relationship with Him, or upon potentially deeply hidden meaning?

This is going to sound flippant and I'm really not being a smart alec, but - both and neither.

I was trying to understand, on many levels. That the Scriptures are written on a level we now don't understand, with many hidden meanings, is clearly true. If one looks at that old Semitic way of writing one quickly understands this. There is an old Sufi poem about a toad that makes absolutely no sense until one understands that the word for 'toad' and the word for 'eternity' are the same word phonetically, even though the are spelled differently. When you understand that the one is a metaphor for the other, the poem becomes this incredible metaphor for life.

The whole of the Scriptures was written when this was the way people wrote, almost exclusively. But we have long ago lost the keys to the metaphors and so people nowadays take the whole thing literally, which it was never meant to be. But listening to someone like Dr. Martin one occasionally can run across a glimmer. I learned things I wouldn't know otherwise.

278 posted on 12/14/2002 6:50:09 AM PST by LogicWings
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To: tm22721
There is causality at the quantum level. The probability is used because all the inputs/variables can't be measured or in some cases the measurement affects the outcome. If you know the exact states of two interacting particles, you will know the outcome exactly.
279 posted on 12/14/2002 7:10:10 AM PST by Gary Boldwater
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To: stuartcr
Leonard Cohen 1968,"Suzanne"

one of the prettiest songs ever written.

280 posted on 12/14/2002 9:28:48 AM PST by LogicWings
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