Open Letter to NTSB - re: Flight 587 Debris Field in Jamaica Bay and Other Debris on Land

USRead; emails ^ | 12/5/02 | Victor Trombettas

[Beach_Babe]

The crash of Flight 587 was the second deadliest aviation disaster in US history, but got relatively scant media attention in the weeks and months that followed. How could they say it was an accident before the flight data recorder was recovered and before the crash investigation team even showed up?

They float ideas, hoping one catches on: first they said it might be a flock of birds … then we heard wake turbulence … then it was a composite material … and now pilot error. They’d better come up with something good because that tail just didn’t fall off.

[Beach_Babe]

BUMP

[jammer]

Oh, wait until the gummit goon squads show up on this thread and that's exactly one of the ideas they'll push.

[Libertarianize the GOP]

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list

[gracex7]

They float ideas, hoping one catches on: first they said it might be a flock of birds … then we heard wake turbulence … then it was a composite material … and now pilot error. They’d better come up with something good because that tail just didn’t fall off.

I don't know.....TWA 800 managed to spontaneously combust all by itself!

[crystalk]

On the very day this happened, I explained it much better than the Government ever has or ever will.

I said then, and I quote

"When they heard that there were six Muslims aboard, the tail and both engines got off of the plane. The other passengers would have left too, but they were buckled down in their seat belts."

[Beach_Babe]

Yeah ... there must be something in the air above NY.

[Beach_Babe]

I said then, and I quote

"When they heard that there were six Muslims aboard, the tail and both engines got off of the plane. The other passengers would have left too, but they were buckled down in their seat belts."

I heard about the charred pages from the book "Manual of Islamic Behavior" a few months ago; but none of the passenger names seemed Muslim ... but then, Richard Reid doesn't seem like a Muslim name...

[gg188]

Richard Reid doesn't seem like a Muslim name...

Yeah. Cat Stevens, either.

[narby]

because that tail just didn’t fall off.

And your evidence is?

Actually, since the Airbus tail is a composite structure, in which it is impossible to detect abnormalities, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it "just fell off".

Carbon fiber is some neat stuff. But there are some big problems with it in airplanes. Things like contamination between layers can cause failures, and the problem cannot be found without testing the part by breaking it.

I'll join the conspiracy train with regard to TWA800 with all the witnesses who saw a missle. But this one looks easy. Tail fell off. Plane crashed. oops.

The fact that they've found other Airbus tails that have delamination problems ought to scare you more about a coverup. A coverup about unsafe French airplanes. Like the coverup of the Boeing 737 rudder problem that caused three crashes, where they recently had a quiet replacement of some rudder control parts and didn't connect it with any previous crashes. Sure.

[cmsgop]

Actually, since the Airbus tail is a composite structure, in which it is impossible to detect abnormalities, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that it "just fell off".

Im with you on this, Nobody really seems to know how long one will last under long term strain.

But the wittneses seem to state they saw an explosion where the wing meets the FL. So it makes it that more complicated,.... I hope the evidence comes out soon....

[mrustow]

Thanks for the ping, Babe.

[eno_]

So in the face of eyewitness accounts of smoking-gun evidence of a shoe bomb or baggage bomb, you're talking about the cheapFrenchplastictail theory. Why don't you throw in thrust reverser (discredited), old engine (discredited), bird strike (discredited), wake turbulence (discredited), pilot harsh on the controls (discredited), cheese (not ripe enough), or any of the other trial balloons lofted by shills like you?

[Boundless]

> I'll join the conspiracy train ....

I won't, but I will point out a connundrum. The leading apparent cause of this accident is the separation of the vertical tail.

Either this accident wasn't the result of that, or the NTSB and FAA are failing to loudly warn operators of Airbuses of a dangerously surprising risk. If you are “concerned” about this accident investigation, you have reason to be.

The Airbus has long been famous (notorious, perhaps) for it's parental fly-by-wire control laws that (everyone thought) went so far in keeping the flight in the envelope, and protecting the airframe from overstress, that the plane would crash rather than allow the pilot to bend it trying to save it.

The 1988 A320 airshow crash may not have been an example of this, but brought the issue to the forefront.

I have since read (and prior to AA587), that some pilots take questionable advantage of this. Reportedly, they perform some takeoffs by firewalling the throttles and pulling the yoke all the way back into their laps, counting on the computers to keep them in the envelope.

As a pilot myself, I have trouble accepting that another pilot would do that, but if true, it would confirm what I’ve long suspected, which is that some pilots, prior to AA587, assumed that nothing they could do with the controls (other than flying into terrain) could bend, much less break, an Airbus.

Airbus has now admitted that this is not true, but is hardly yelling it from the top of the Effiel Tower (nor is the NTSB, nor is the FAA). If you don’t read Aviation Week cover-to-cover, you might yet not know. Indeed, it would seem that rudder caution needs to be emphasized on all large a/c types, and not just Airbus.

With what we now know, it was just a matter of time before a crew literally "kicked the tail off" an Airbus.

As to whether or not that describes what happened to AA587 ... we now return you to your regularly scheduled internet debate.

[Beach_Babe]

You think this might be Witness #321?

On Fox 5 NY a man named Kenneth Brown said this to Rosanna ? and John ?

John: Ken, you there?

Ken: yes yes I am.

John: Can you tell us what you saw Ken?

Ken: Alright, I was out on the boat about a hundred twentieth a hundred nineteenth st when un we stopped the boat cause we have an engine..yah know the engine was making weird sounds, so we stopped the boat and we were back by the engine and I heard a popping sound...not like a a a I cant even say it was an explosion, it was more like a pop and then like a whishing sound and then part of the wing came off.

John: Where was the plane at that moment?

Ken: Right over the bay. Right over the bay

John: So is it almost right above you?

Ken: Yes, kinda to the north of us, cause we where more to the east channel drive at that time, on that side of Jamaica Bay and um the pieces that came off the wing...flew into the um tail and tore the tail off and as soon as that happened the plane went belly up towards us and towards the east and it just dove straight down, like the uhh the belly of the plane actually turned toward the south and it went straight down into the ground.

John: So you saw some big pieces of this plane come off...

Ken: We was the first ones on the scene and then the police boat came and we helped them pick up parts of the boat..uh..parts a the plane. We actually took up the blue A off of the tail we put that in the boat. Ummm the picture of the....another piece of the whole top of the tail with the flag on it was laying in shallow water. We took up allot of pieces of the boat...the plane we put it on the boat and took them in to the police boat an helped load em onto the police boat but a a the engine

Rosannabreaks in: Well it sounds like you have some crucial information Ken...

His voice rising Ken says: See the engine...everybody keeps saying the engine fell off...if it fell off it fell off on the way down....

John: U Huh

Ken: That plane as soon as its tail came off it just bellied up and went straight down, so yah know people saying yah know the engine came off, but that came off after the fact. Now as far as explosion, something was happening over the bay, something made the wing shatter and took of the tail. and uh the way I seen it , it still looked like it had its engines on as it was going down.

John: Have you spoken to anyone there uh Ken have you talked to any members of the..

Ken: Yeh a yeh police I gave the police a guy in a police boat my name and all that and when I was helping em with ya know the parts of the plane

Woman: Ken you sound very shacking up , I'm sure this has..

Ken: I'm still shacking, its a its just a terrible sight. Ya know its something ya see on a movie Ya know how the plane..ya just just knew it..that it wouldn't, as it was going down I was saying hit the ocean hit the ocean thinking ya know maybe it cleared, its only 4 blocks wide but the plane just turned over and came straight down. It was..its a sight to see..it was ya know stunned me

Woman: Were you able to keep your composure and think clearly at that point?

Ken: Yes, actually actually the things was starting to fly down toward the boat so we backed up a little bit toward the the trestles the A train trestle and then we came back to see if they was any...ah cause at one time I thought I could see a seat but I wasn't even sure, Nothing heavy came down, everything floated down

Woman: Do you think you got everything that was in the water?

Ken: Mostly everything that was floating yah. Cause a the police boat came like the within 5 minutes..3 minutes maybe but that plane was gone in 6 seconds, when I heard the popping sound and seen the flames seen the uh wing hit the back tail an that came off it couldn't a been more than 3 seconds for it was down

John: So your saying the wing came off and hit the tail?

Ken: Parts yes...the whole section of the tail was what we recovered. The A the little flag on the top of the tail section that whole section, like the 30 foot top of that was stuck in the sand...in the water about 5 feet of water but there was other pieces floating around..as a matter of fact I took the blue A and we pulled that part on the boat and brought it over to the police boat. They was asking for our help then allot of boats came by allot of police boats

John: Nick your sitting hearing what Ken is saying that if any any questions for him? Nick Well um it sounds like Ken is your describing is a again that something exploded uh to cause these pieces of the wing to come out. Is that what you sug..

Ken: Exactly something happened to that wing that sent pieces of it back to the tail.

John: was it the left wing or the right wing Ken do ya know?

Ken: ahh see now like my friend..well.. a it bellied up to me and a when it bellied up to the east it a looked like the right wing cause the left wing still looked intact to me. It looked like the right wing had come off..or part of it

John: well that would fit with what the

(over talk..engine..saying..?) Nick: Unnn but again Ken Kinda saying the engine fell off after the fact but still potentially the engine exploding could could cause pieces of the engine to fly I mean what may have happened was a a series of events where pieces if the engine actually flew back and struck the tail or even that pieces of the engine and the wing at the same time so a but a Kens observations of the tail is a very interesting clue

John: Do you live around there Ken?

Ken: Yes, I live in Hamilton beach right off Jamaica Bay and a thats the whole thing..That plane would have went over Rockaway cause it was still like level until the tail came off and then it just bellied up and spun around and came straight down uh otherwise it would..that tail..as soon as it shattered thats when the plane lost everything

Nick: Now Ken did you see actual flames coming out of an engine that was..?

Ken: There was flames on the belly of the plane..I don't know weather it was the engine or ya know, but the plane bellied up towards us as it was going down and flames in the a..in that vicinity of the engines or whatever like underneath the plane

Well Ken we a thank you for your time

Ken: No Problem

32 posted on 07/16/2002 6:31 PM EDT by copycat
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[wcbtinman]

I saw a photograph, purportedly of the tail of the aircraft, in a building after it had been recovered. The "break" in the forward attachment ring was clearly visible.

While I'm not an "engineer", I was trained as an aircraft mechanic and through various racing endeavors have worked with composite materials.

The "break" in the photograph was definitly not from a tension force, or from any other force that was not assisted by a horizontal "cut" or fracture prior to it's departing the aircraft. This failure was a clean cut type of seperation, not the ripped and distorted failure that any person with any experience with composites would expect to find.

As to how the cut happened, I have some ideas, and some of them involve sabotage.

What I do know is that the NTSB and the law enforcement agencies are pissing on our legs and telling us it's raining.

[Orangedog]

...and this whole debate might be settled if the NTSB would turn over the footage from the traffic cameras that captured pictures of 587 during the "event."