Police Seize Home Arsenal Fire Alerts Authorities to Nearly 500 (legal) Weapons

The Asbury Park Press ^ | 12-03-02 | Michael Clancy

[Terriergal]

It would be a 2nd amendment story if they seized the guns when he had not done anything threatening to the firemen.

The fact that he has a ton of weapons is irrelevant to the story- funny that they included it in the headline huh!

[Cultural Jihad]

These ideologues think inalienable rights are an early death, slavery to vice, and the pursuit of unneeded suffering.

[DAnconia55]

Apparently suicide should also not be against the law

Quite correct.

Either you own your person, or the Government does.

Either/Or. Choose one. Now.

[supercat]

2. Any Amendment to the Constitution that overrides the one above for Fire Chiefs.

Courts have consistently held that warrants are not necessary for government personnel to enter a person's property under certain exigent circumstances. Generally, a fire would certainly qualify as such.

On the other hand, I'm also curious as to what evidence of a fire existed outside the building at the time the firefighters arrived. In the early stages of a chimney fire, seconds count. The inside of a chimney which is open at both top and bottom represents near-ideal combustion conditions, and a fire in such an environment can very quickly get hot enough to overcome the thermal resistance of the chimney materials (either causing the chimney to fail, or causing the outside to get hot enough to ignite something nearby).

On the other hand, the fire fighters probably didn't arrive at such an extremely time-critical moment (from what I understand, the firehouse could have been right next door, the men waiting in the truck when the fire started, and the homeowner's front door already open to let them in when they arrived, and they still likely wouldn't have been fast enough to stop the fire from spreading). From what I understand, there were basically three possible scenarios when the firefighters arrived:

• The fire had already obviously spread, in which case severe damage to the structure would be inevitable.
• The fire was already under control, and no damage to the structure beyond a thin coating of wood smoke to the walls, ceilings, and exposed items and furnishings, would occur.
• The fire was spread, but its spread was not apparent. In this case, significant damage to the structure would likely be necessary to get at and extinguish the fire; in this scenario the exact time the firemen arrive probably matters least, since the longer they spend before looking for the fire, the more obvious the fire is going to be once they do start looking (and thus the sooner they can find and extinguish it).

[DAnconia55]

The relevant part, ONCE AGAIN, in case you missed it before, is "UNREASONABLE".

Ah, I see. So the statist interpretation is this : If one has a warrant, one can seize objects or people unreasonably.

LOL...

Either a Government official has to have a warrant to arrest you, or he does not. Either/Or. Choose. Now.

[Catspaw]

Is the possession of child pornography a crime?

Either/Or. Choose. Now.

[wimpycat]

First it was law officer, now it is government official. Make up your mind.

The Fire Chief has the backing of law that has passed Constitutional muster to remove civilians from danger and to prevent civilians from interfering with the efforts of firefighters to carry out their obligations.

[Catspaw]

So your conclusion is what? That because the fire may have been under control, the firefighters had no right to enter his house? That by observing the house from the outside, they should've been able to determine the extent of the fire?

[SSN558]

The perfect dream of a house filled with hundreds of firearms and something just had to spoil it. Imagine the smell of gun oil permeating the curtains and rugs, ahhh...Buckets of bullets just asking for you to run your fingers through them, leaving the delightful smell of brass on your hands. Waking to sun shining through the window and the sight of guns everyplace your eyes turn. Ahhhhhh....the touch and feel of cold steel contrasted with the warm wood. ahhh....

Heaven on earth. A gun nut's paradise.

[wimpycat]

Are you willing to take the consequences of defying a Fire Chief? Are you willing to respect the Constitutional authority of the district attorney, the judge and jury who will decide whether or not you are guilty of breaking the law that is on the books if you choose to break the law against interfering with the fire department's duties? True believers of the Constitution respect the law, and are willing to take the consequences when they choose to break it.

[supercat]

The problem is, of course, that the firefighters don't know that when responding to a chimney fire unless they're blessed with a certain amount of clairvoyance and x-ray vision.

As the firemen approached the house, what evidence if any was there of a fire inside? Further, what if any information did they have about the nature of the call?

If firemen show up at a dwelling and no fire is apparent, do they immediately break down the door, or do they knock and see if anyone is around who can explain the call?

[Catspaw]

Oh, I suppose the firefighters, ever ready in their turnout gear, were cruising up & down the streets of Fair Haven, New Jersey in their fire truck, saw a chimney and said, "hey, there's smoke coming out of that chimney and when there's smoke, there's fire" and sprung into action, breaking down his door and throwing him into the clink when he got all huffy. How do you think they were dispatched to that site? Ya think someone called in a report of a fire?

[Catspaw]

The perfect dream of a house filled with hundreds of firearms and something just had to spoil it. Imagine the smell of gun oil permeating the curtains and rugs, ahhh...Buckets of bullets just asking for you to run your fingers through them, leaving the delightful smell of brass on your hands. Waking to sun shining through the window and the sight of guns everyplace your eyes turn. Ahhhhhh....the touch and feel of cold steel contrasted with the warm wood. ahhh....

I just have this feeling he's not married.

[tpaine]

"Robert Frank, a volunteer firefighter and off-duty police officer from Little Silver, grabbed Arford and the rifle before he could raise the weapon, McGovern said. "

Hmm... If I had my tinfoil hat on I would suspect that the guy didn't point the gun at anybody and the off-duty cop arrested him without provocation. I don't think there is a rule against grabbing an unloaded weapon in your own house and *not* pointing it at anybody. - 311


Exactly. The most simple logical explanation is usually best:

The firefighter chief ~insists~ that Arford leave his house, pissing him off.
He argues to no avail, and in leaving, grabs a valued gun to take it out of harms way, -- when the cop/volunteer over-reacts and arrests him.
This snowballs into a complete 'seizure of the arsenal'.

I'd lay odds that eventually Arford gets his collection returned, along with an 'undisclosed settlement' from the towns insurance carrier.

[Texasforever]

Before this thread ends someone will say that the cops started the fire to get the guns.

[Teacher317]

Considering how fast a slug leaves the barrel, one would think a portion of that energy would still be pretty dangerous. But I see what you mean.

True, there will still be much energy, but since the slug won't have any direction, much of the energy that isn't lost will be spent when the slug spins wildly. There is a solid amount of energy from the gunpowder igniting, but after 70% of it is lost the millisecond that the slug is out of its jacket, the remaining 30% will be cut down considerably as it spins like a kicked football. I doubt it would travel more than ten yards or so, and it certainly wouldn't be able to pinpont enough force on any single spot to penetrate a wet paper bag.

[wimpycat]

If I had my tinfoil hat on I would suspect that the guy didn't point the gun at anybody and the off-duty cop arrested him without provocation.

You agree with this guy, even though he prefaced his remark with if I had my tinfoil hat on..., and you characterize this as the "most simple logical explanation"?

ROFL! Nice going, Pain!

[wimpycat]

How much are you willing to put on that?

[Catspaw]

I'd lay odds that eventually Arford gets his collection returned, along with an 'undisclosed settlement' from the towns insurance carrier.

He's going to need it. His homeowner's insurance won't cover any damage done by the smoke and/or fire.

[Catspaw]

Before this thread ends someone will say that the cops started the fire to get the guns.

That's not a bet I'm willing to take. Uh nyuh, no way. After all, I lost $20 when I said the Packers would beat the Bucs by six.