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Toxic Intruder: Black Mold Panic Has Families Fleeing Their Homes
ABCNEWS.com ^ | 11/29/02

Posted on 11/29/2002 1:20:38 PM PST by Jean S

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To: CWRWinger
Have you decided to make love to living beings yet?
61 posted on 11/29/2002 4:01:57 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Restorer
The home building industry is running scared. The APA is workin very hard in educating builders on good practice. Moisture is the culprit here and the problem can be remedied. The building products industry is also working hard. They are even looking at additives for lumber products. Sweaty pipes is another issue that's being addressed. Air exchangers will soon be a requirement as well.
62 posted on 11/29/2002 4:07:31 PM PST by orfisher
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To: Eagle Eye
I shot 200 rounds at the range today, shooting at human silhouttes.
63 posted on 11/29/2002 4:09:44 PM PST by CWRWinger
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To: Minutemen
Leviticus 14:33
Yahweh spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
14:34
"When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put a spreading mildew in a house in the land of your possession,
14:35
then he who owns the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, 'There seems to me to be some sort of plague in the house.'
14:36
The priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest goes in to examine the plague, that all that is in the house not be made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to inspect the house.
14:37
He shall examine the plague; and, behold, if the plague is in the walls of the house with hollow streaks, greenish or reddish, and it appears to be deeper than the wall;
14:38
then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days.
14:39
The priest shall come again on the seventh day, and look. If the plague has spread in the walls of the house,
14:40
then the priest shall command that they take out the stones in which is the plague, and cast them into an unclean place outside of the city:
14:41
and he shall cause the inside of the house to be scraped round about, and they shall pour out the mortar, that they scraped off, outside of the city into an unclean place.
14:42
They shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other mortar, and shall plaster the house.
14:43
"If the plague comes again, and breaks out in the house, after he has taken out the stones, and after he has scraped the house, and after it was plastered;
14:44
then the priest shall come in and look; and, behold, if the plague has spread in the house, it is a destructive mildew in the house. It is unclean.
14:45
He shall break down the house, its stones, and its timber, and all the house's mortar. He shall carry them out of the city into an unclean place.
14:46
"Moreover he who goes into the house while it is shut up shall be unclean until the evening.
14:47
He who lies down in the house shall wash his clothes; and he who eats in the house shall wash his clothes.
14:48
"If the priest shall come in, and examine it, and, behold, the plague hasn't spread in the house, after the house was plastered, then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
14:49
To cleanse the house he shall take two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop.

There is nothing new under the sun. This 3,000 + year old passage shows two things: God wanted the Jews to be careful around mold; and that modern building codes, materials and practices have little to do with the problem.
64 posted on 11/29/2002 4:12:27 PM PST by gusopol3
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To: boomop1
Nah, this stuff is from Mir. D@mn stuff was even damaging titanium.

I think mercury does a number on mold too. Vaguely recall that it was added as a preservative to [latex?] paints until about 15 years ago or so.

65 posted on 11/29/2002 4:13:11 PM PST by Calvin Locke
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To: Restorer
I suspect there's just about as high a percentage of greedy landlords as there is of greedy tenants.

On a percentage basis, you're probably right. But keep in mind that there are many more tenants than there are landlords.

Also, consider areas where there's rent controls - in many cases, a landlord cannot make enough money to make real repairs. I think this is sometimes true in older "duplex" homes that are bought up by young landlords (and I'm thinking of a few I knew in my younger years) trying to work their way into business. In most cases, these folks buy old cheap homes in the inner city and do most of the maintenance by themselves, occasionally to their own detriment. Its expensive to hire professionals at times, but it is sometimes necessary.

66 posted on 11/29/2002 4:17:47 PM PST by meyer
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To: JeanS
I hear Black Mold is great on toast, once you get the sheetrock off it. I think the British call it Marmite.
67 posted on 11/29/2002 4:20:46 PM PST by PoorMuttly
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To: orfisher
Here is another reason. Goberment, by law, demanded building be built to, and with, NASA type materials and techniques. Unfortunately, the trades do not on average employee MIT grads. Old building techniques were understandable to the intellect and education of the labor force. Now, and I hear this a lot, it is "I don't understand it, but that's what is "called for" so throw it up there." Furthermore skilled tradesmen are a dying breed. You used to have guys who understood the interactions of each other trade. Now they just tend to come in, do their thing, and move on. So much for "building SYSTEM language." Often it is more like a cluster f**k.

Ehhh, damn, I got myself started.....
68 posted on 11/29/2002 4:22:05 PM PST by Leisler
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To: CWRWinger
Give it to some libertairians and they'll figure out a way to smoke it.

Ha! Stach the deck, baby! Its Friday Night!!

69 posted on 11/29/2002 4:22:13 PM PST by meyer
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To: snopercod
I'll be there isn't one FReeper on this thread who has a clue what kind of HVAC sysem he/she has in the house. Metal ducts? Rigid fiberglass? Round flexible ducts? What is the total/sensible ratio of your AC unit? Where your air-handler is located, can you clean out the evaporator coils? How many air-changes per hour do you get in each room of the house?


Don't be so hard on us uninformed types. I bought a house, hired a house inspector who gave it a clean bill of health, including the electric heating system. Hmmmm, why do the breakers keep blowing? And why is water flow so bad in kitchen. And where are the flies coming from? Among other problems

I decided to remodel and found out why.

Turns out that the electric system was poorly done, the water pipes were too small, and the builder of the house just nailed up tongue and groove wood paneling to the studs with no wallboard. You could literally see through the walls where they came together when the sun was right.

I now know a lot more about houses. But if people you hire to find out if there are problems don't figure it out, then what do you do?

BTW, do you do internet consulting? I bagged getting an architect after being charged 3k just to get as is plans of a largely empty shell made for the electical engineer, and have a few issues to resolve in my remodel.

70 posted on 11/29/2002 4:24:26 PM PST by Jesse
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To: CWRWinger
That's a pretty lame threat.
71 posted on 11/29/2002 4:27:17 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Restorer
A home is a man's castle, and every castle needs a moat to dissuade attackers. In this day and age, instead of a moat the homeowner needs knowledge of current events, a good insurance company, and common sense to fend off the hoards of lawyers and unscrupulous contractors who have encircled American communities. For years, lawyers and contractors have been utilizing scare tactics to swindle millions of dollars from homeowners and insurance companies.

The use of junk science to cheat homeowners and insurance companies started with the asbestos scare of the 1960's. Even today American cities are filled with needlessly abandoned buildings because of lawyers, unscrupulous contractors, and knee-jerk government reaction causing the evacuation of formerly valuable assets. When the lawyers, contractors and politicians milked the asbestos issue for all it was worth, they turned to the myth of radon gas, then radon gas turned into toxic poisoning, then electromagnetic waves (they're coming back again), and now mold.

But all is not lost. Scientists and medical experts, who may finally be getting the attention they deserve, are alerting the public that most mold, including allergenic mold, is not nearly as dangerous or pervasive as "mold remediation experts" claim.

Gailen Marshall, director of the Division of Allergy and Clinical Immunology at the University of Texas Medical School in Houston, said, "Mold is everywhere. For most people, mold is a mostly ignored part of their lives. For some with mold allergies, the smell can cause nasal allergy or even asthma symptoms. Yet what is increasingly clear is that their mold-related illness has nothing to do with toxic substances produced by molds."

Airborne mold spores, much like pollen, dust or animal dander, trigger allergic reactions. But mold toxins, however potentially harmful, never get into the body in high enough levels to cause harm. These mycotoxins, secreted by a dozen or so mold species, are known to be deadly to animals that ingest them in large amounts (typically while feeding on stored hay or grain). The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) report that very few cases of toxic mold inside homes have been shown to cause serious human health problems, and they usually involve someone who ate very old food laced with toxic mold.

A September 17, 2002 Washington Post news story on mold reported, "Although rampant mold growth in these cases may have caused illnesses, scientists have been unable to show a clear link between some of the more frightening reported symptoms, such as memory loss and internal bleeding, and breathing in mold toxins. Three recent reviews of the medical literature found no support for the claim that toxic mold levels in the home or office can lead to chronic or life-threatening health problems. These independently funded reviews were conducted largely to educate health care professionals and industrial hygienists about mold exposure. A fourth study is now underway by the Institute of Medicine for the CDC."

The article did note, "Mold is by no means always benign. The most recent of the completed reviews, conducted in part by Norman King, an epidemiologist for a Montreal regional public health board, found a strong association between mold and respiratory problems, such as exacerbation of asthma. Scientists cannot rule out the possibility that mold levels cause more serious problems, King said, but no link has yet been demonstrated."

Coreen Robbins, an industrial hygienist with Global Tox Inc., a firm based in Redmond, Wash., says, "Toxins from mold-such as those from an infamous black mold called Stachybotrys, which is often cited in lawsuits as causing grave harm to human health-are not readily airborne, and are therefore not likely to be breathed in. Even if the toxins piggyback on spores, it's nearly impossible for them to enter the human body in large enough quantity to cause illness."

Robbins said that Stachybotrys often grows below floors and behind walls, and we are unlikely to breathe in its toxins because they cling to mold and dust particles. The mere presence of toxic mold, according to Robbins, is no indication that the air contains mycotoxins. "This is a fairly complex topic, so it is ripe for a bit of bamboozlry," Robbins said. Cottage industries have sprung up overnight to test for and clean up toxic mold. She said newly minted "mold consultants" are participating in what "is like a huge hoax." While common sense tells us we should clean up moldy stuff indoors, Robbins said, removing floorboards, walls and ducts upon detection of a few Stachybotrys spores is often unnecessary.

Even if indoor mold in rare cases is harmful, there is the specter of an epidemic of fraud in mold claims. Jerry Johns, president of the Austin-based Southwestern Insurance Information Service, which represents the majority of the state's property-casualty insurers, stated, "Mold remediation fraud is rapidly becoming a nationwide problem."

For example, a Houston federal grand jury earlier this year indicted a local area contractor-Johnny Duane Staples, of Baytown, Texas-as heading a group involving his relatives and associates who perpetrated mold remediation scams that cost insurers over $7 million dollars as a result of 54 false claims.

The indictment states that the group would generally buy a two-story home in a residential neighborhood that they would briefly occupy. On weekends, they would remove most of the good furnishings and replace them with cheaper items. The windows would be covered with sheets and the house would be left to soak for eight-to-10 days, and then a damage report would be made.

The indictment charges that Mr. Staples and his group, acting as contractor remediators, would then generate false invoices to be given to insurers, and pay other persons to generate fake documents that went to insurers. Their activities led to charges of conspiracy, mail fraud and money laundering.

Insurers named as victims included Allstate, Farmers Group, Farmers Mutual Protective Association, General Star Indemnity Company, Heartland Insurance Group, Scottsdale, State Farm, Texas Farm Bureau, Mt. Vernon, Republic, Heartland Lloyds, Horace Mann, Kemper, and Prudential Property and Casualty. The Houston case is currently set for trial, but has been delayed to allow plea negotiations. Johns commented, "In addition to getting paid for the replacement of furniture and appliances, these scammers collected for living expenses, and insurers were charged two or three times what people were actually paying." He added, "With a house worth $100,000, an insurer could end up paying two or three times the cost of a home."

The mold con artists left dozens of homes in a soggy, mold-covered condition after the plotters cracked water pipes and turned on garden hoses to create damage claims. In many mold fraud cases, doors and windows of homes were sealed up to create a warm environment that cooks up mold.

Johns notes that insurance company investigators often find remediators who offer to check homes for mold sometimes intentionally exacerbate existing mold conditions after persuading residents to leave, or plant mold where it never existed. Remediators have their own testers who inspect the work, and frequently the finding is, "Oops, still got mold-have to go to work again."

Price-gouging contractors will charge insurers five times the norm for building materials, and hundreds of dollars for protective bio-hazard "moon suits" made of paper.

Johns says mold remediation fraud frequently involves repairs that are not made at all, or for which inflated rates are listed. Johns said examples of such scams involve charging for water extraction units that either are not used or employed for much less time than is charged for.

The growth in mold cases is being fueled by billboards popping up across the state, which urge homeowners to bring claims.

The problem of lawsuit abuse makes the fraud even more costly. According to Johns, adjusters fearing multi-million dollar lawsuits do everything possible, including settling questionable mold claims, to avoid litigation and the attendant risk of a huge jury verdict.

Earlier this year, Texas Insurance Commissioner Jose Montemayor started an investigation into mold fraud, but discussion of the problem has remained largely absent from the political debate. Moreover, it is Farmers and other insurers that appear to be the first targets of state legal action. Fraudulent mold claim remediators should be prosecuted under existing laws that address fraud and the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act. It is time for Texas politicians in both parties to break the mold and utilize existing laws, rather than government rate controls, as the solution for a problem that involves junk science, lawsuit abuse, greed, and fraud. If policy is dictated by political demagoguery instead of sound science, economics, and common sense, Texas' insurance industry, a pillar of our economy, will become the proverbial baby thrown out with the bathwater.

(from Carl Tepper, Austin (Texas) Review)

72 posted on 11/29/2002 4:27:37 PM PST by friendly
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To: independentmind
Well, that's pretty much the opposite of what I've heard, actually. The generally antiseptic environment in which many of us live today doesn't give us the ability to build up tolerance to irritants.

That seems valid as well. I suspect that when some studies are actually completed, we'll find a wide range of causes for asthma. My brother had asthma as a kid, but kind of "outgrew" it. He would wake up many a night wheezing, but had his trusty inhaler available at all times. Still won "letter" for the track team in High School though.

My asthma was the opposite. I was plagued with allergies every fall, but never had breathing problems until 3 years after I got a cat. That asthma was controlled mostly through HEPA filters and the electrostatic filter on my furnace. There are some cat-owners' homes that I cannot spend more than a couple of hours in.

Really, I think a lot of asthma (but not ALL asthma by any stretch) is an allergic type reaction, but the trigger is different among different folks.

BTW, I have heard a more recent theory that the increase in asthma cases has been a result of increased/better diagnosis. I am a bit suspicious of this theory though. I mean, if people are unable to breath, it is pretty obvious that something is wrong, and it was just as obvious 30 years ago.

73 posted on 11/29/2002 4:31:39 PM PST by meyer
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To: Restorer
Do you think people who have legitimate claims denied by their insurer should NOT sue the company that violates a legal contract? If so, why do you believe this?

The key word is "legitimate." I think most of the mold "panic" is NOT legitimate. Now we have to choose to have mold coverage or not, and I choose not to have it.

I don't pretend to be an authority on mold but one can't help but wonder "WHY?" all of a sudden all these people are having these problems caused by black mold.

Do you think Ms. Ballard was entitled to $32 million?

I think a few greedy people and an equal number of greedy lawyers have messed up homeowner's insurance for the rest of us. I've even heard of real estate agents not selling houses because the potential buyer couldn't get insurance; and the agents were NOT blaming the insurance companies!

74 posted on 11/29/2002 4:34:14 PM PST by lonestar
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To: Eagle Eye
If people could only see what is in their carpets...

You aren't kidding... When I cleaned the carpet in my old house before I sold it, I steamed out a ton of nasty, dirty stuff. I cleaned it twice and even the second pass, a week after the first, was pretty dirty. Yecccchhh!!!

75 posted on 11/29/2002 4:34:32 PM PST by meyer
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To: Eagle Eye; Restorer
FYI, I recently removed all my wall to wall and replaced it with vinyl and throw rugs. If people could only see what is in their carpets...

Wouldn't vinyl trap moisture and cause mold in flooring lumber? I have a friend who used ceramic tile flooring throughout his entire house. (Besides the expense, can a case be made for marble flooring and interior marble walls?)

I do think there is evidence supporting we have a problem with mold. We have a number of old county buildings that were vacated because of people getting sick from mold.

I have noticed that many constructions use a composite floor and wall sheeting that is glue and saw dust instead of wood planking (A moisture trap?). The new, cheap building materials really suck.

I live in an area of coastal California (Monterey Bay) that is frequently foggy and damp. I have noticed a great deal of mold/moisture problems in many area homes. Many of the contractors are out for a fast buck. Real estate is very expensive here and to make prices attractive to buyers, they cut corners on material costs...

My ideal house - - stone and concrete walls with large windows of structural plate glass, an expansive, open floor plan, treated open beam wood ceilings under an ashphalt roof, marble floors.

76 posted on 11/29/2002 4:38:33 PM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood
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To: friendly
I understand that it is impossible to prove a negative, no matter how hard one tries.

There have been proven illnesses and even at least one fatality directly and officially attributed to mold. This is fact, not urban legend and lore. It would be much easier for everyone but the lawyers if this wasn't the case.

I didn't see anything in your citation that definitively ruled out any and all human toxic responses from mold. In fact, the national safety and industrial hygiene organizations would refuse to do that. They know that mold can be hazardous to human health as an indoor air quality issue.

77 posted on 11/29/2002 4:40:40 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: meyer
I steamed out a ton of nasty, dirty stuff. I cleaned it twice and even the second pass, a week after the first, was pretty dirty. Yecccchhh!!!

Molds like water. And you forced water into your carpet and pad.

I certainly hope you got it all dry.

78 posted on 11/29/2002 4:44:37 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
I have noticed that many constructions use a composite floor and wall sheeting that is glue and saw dust instead of wood planking (A moisture trap?). The new, cheap building materials really suck.

Some of these materials are hydrophillic (attract water).

79 posted on 11/29/2002 4:47:05 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: JeanS
I make a lot of money going in and gutting homes that are quite "bad".

Black mold has a white ring around its outer circle. Mildew, is very often mistakin for black mold. I know the difference...do I tell my customers that it's only mildew?? Not on your life. Infact, I generally add a zero when it's mistakingly diagnosed a black mold situation.

I never got sick. I smoke cigarrettes and drink a pot of coffee a day...so if there ever is a respitory problem, what caused it?

If you do have black mold, rip out the dry wall, saturate the studs with bleach(two coats), put new board up. You'll be just fine.

JMHO

SR

80 posted on 11/29/2002 4:47:33 PM PST by sit-rep
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