Archaeologists Announce Discovery Of Underwater Man-Made Wall (Very Old)

China Post ^ | 11-26-2002

[William Terrell]

So you're saying that, in advance of the collapse of the Northern Kingdom, a wave of Jewish emmigration went to Europe and underwent a language shift to Celtic. They didn't merge with a pre-existing Celtic people; they became the Celts, first wave. They just happened to invent a new language more similar to the ones already there than the one they already had. If they knew how to write, they forgot again until they eventually invented runes. If they were monotheists, they forgot. If they remembered anything of their old pottery and metallurgy styles, they forgot.

If the Israelite Egyptian experience predates the capture of the Northern Kingdom. There were no "Jews", as the nickname is used nowadays, during the Egyptian sojurn; there was only twelve Israeltie tribes, thirteen if you count the Levites disbursed among them. The nickname only came in style after the creation of the Southern Kingdom, dominated by Tribe Judah. That you use such terms shows you haven't made the slightest effort to learn even the points that are unarguable because they are written.

Language shift to "Celtic", meaning a language. You might want to ponder the changes in a people who were enslaved by a different culture than their own, where the people en mass couldn't read or write and pass information on by the written word available for all to study, moved to a wilderness, all this covering a span of of a thousand years, about 300 to 500 years for the "new" celts.

A little clue is why Shakespear's plays are boring and opaque to the balance of people in any English speaking population. A lot of the words sound near the same, but the communication is lost. Shakespear lived how long ago? This in an age where there was an order of magnitude more literacy among the common people than one millenium BC.

Obviously they didn't forget old technology, they simply updated it and adopted new ideas. People do that, especially during long time spans.

But, still, all this tortureous process of deriving truth and proof from the faded skein of ancient history to trace the descendents of the tribes doesn't matter. Either you think God is a piker blowing smoke up our collective rears, or you hold faith with His prophesies.

His prophesies say there is a extremely large population of the descendent of the tribes. Again, what are your candidates, if not the European strains? There are other populations to pick from.

So long as you don't pick an alternate, your picking at details describes an automatic rejection of the most likely people, which in turn is found in an emotionaly based position. I suspect the reason you don't is because you absolutely can't make any reasonable argument for it.

[William Terrell]

No kidding?

Yes. This is related to my question about popular behavior. You didn't get that?

[VadeRetro]

Language shift to "Celtic", meaning a language. You might want to ponder the changes in a people who were enslaved by a different culture than their own, where the people en mass couldn't read or write and pass information on by the written word available for all to study, moved to a wilderness, all this covering a span of of a thousand years, about 300 to 500 years for the "new" celts.

Read 281 again. You're not clearing the hurdle. You have not explained why your Celts are in a whole different language family from their ancestor whatevers and from the Egyptians. Egyptian = Semitic. Hebrew = Semitic. Celtic = Indoeuropean. Where did that come from and why has nothing of the sort ever been observed since?

Your inability to understand the problem is not an argument, is not helping you here.

A little clue is why Shakespear's plays are boring and opaque to the balance of people in any English speaking population. A lot of the words sound near the same, but the communication is lost. Shakespear lived how long ago? This in an age where there was an order of magnitude more literacy among the common people than one millenium BC.

Beowulf was written in an identifiably Germanic language, Anglo-Saxon. We can't understand it now without the help of a special course or two. We can see, however, that it's an Indoeuropean language related to old German, and that many of the root words are still with us.

Chaucer, just a few hundred years later, wrote in a language we can almost sort of understand without the footnotes. It's still an Indoeuropean language. It's still a Germanic language.

Shakespeare, 300 years late, wrote in a language notably different from Chaucer's. But it's still Indoeuropean and still Germanic.

Modern English has absorbed a lot of Latin, mostly technical words from law, medicine, and science. Also lots of foreign loan words. It's different from Shakespeare's day. It's still Indoeuropean and still Germanic. It still has all these old Anglo-Saxon Beowulf words in its core vocabulary.

Are you getting the picture? Your handwaves don't cut it. You're not answering the mail here. Your theory is absurd.

[VadeRetro]

But, still, all this tortureous process of deriving truth and proof from the faded skein of ancient history to trace the descendents of the tribes doesn't matter. Either you think God is a piker blowing smoke up our collective rears, or you hold faith with His prophesies.

Here you basically punt on the evidence and say that your theory is true because Biblical prophecy is true. I'd already guessed that it's one of those things where you have to already believe before the arguments work.

[Mare Tranquilitatus]

Viewing this "debate" it seems clear the disagreement is really between holders to the old and traditional history of the Celtic peoples as found in glossy and generally poorly researched books and TV specials, and in many traditional English language texts as well, and those who recognize that very much has been learned since the first of those cross-plagarized texts was written.

It is hard at this time to prove who is correct, but with all the factual smoke and cinders coming from the numerous new archeological finds there is a mighty big historical fire burning just over the hill, and it seems to be getting larger and is headed this way.

What confuses this FR thread is there is a strong taint of Anti-Biblical narcissism exhibited in the traditional argument, suggesting the proponent of the old and mouldy may have spent too much time hidden in the backwoods with old Life and Look magazines, and not enough time in the field. In addition, the varied special interests who are tied to keeping the so-called Lost Tribes lost forever are clearly in full panic at the thought these Israelites might be discovered, and their population may not be very small at all.

[VadeRetro]

[Leonard Nimoy voice:]

Fascinating!

[William Terrell]

The "language leakage" arguments don't hunt. For a very patient explanation, try 281. Nobody has done more on this thread than misunderstand the problem. Nothing goes away that way. It's still there for anyone with an education.

Doesn't hunt? Have you read the 12 pages I refered you to? What, do you want me to type them for you? Check out the book and read it yourself.

Polytheisms? I wouldn't doub it. The ten tribes had already left their Israelite roots and dipped into paganism long before the Assyrians captured them. Their Biblical punishment was to lose their identity. You find this strange?

Metalworking. Yes, tell me about the metalworking. Don't just refer to it. Differences? No doubt. Metalworking and such technologies don't evolve over a millenium?

You routinely forget that we are talking about hundreds, or over a thousand, years here. Do you think our own root people from a thousand years ago would even begin to understand anything about our civilization now? Ideas spread over a period of time even in a illiterate world.

1) Most people think the Celts and Hebrews were different groups. How is this wrong and why has no one before you loonies noticed?

Loonies. So you do belong to the group I asked you about. It becomes clear why you refuse to discuss it. Has it escaped your notice that most people thought the world was flat centuries ago? Did that make them right?

PLease note that there is very little research on the lost tribes, and none of it existing referes to 22,000 thousand Assyrian tablets dscovered and translated.

2) Weren't the Celts around before the Lost Tribes went lost? If you're going to cite the Exodus from Egypt as peopling Europe with the first wave of Celts, why don't any sources--not Exodus, not the Egyptians--mention any such thing? What is the evidentiary basis for what looks like an ad hoc revision?

Well, there are classical references to the Egyptian origins of the Greeks. Diodorus Siculus quoting Hectaeus of Abdere mentions that the Egyptians of the time in question expelled foreigners, the most distinguished of which followed Danaus and Cadmus to Greece, but he notes, that later Moses led the greater portion to Judea.

There is a lot more. Check out Capt's book from the library and read chapter 4. Much too much to retype here. Sorry. There is not enough known for sure of the ancient world for "revision", "ad hoc" or otherwise.

[William Terrell]

You're telling me I'm a racist if I don't shut up and go along with your nutcase theory. Sounds liberal to me.

Would you refer to where I call you a racists for any reason?

Ah, nutcase theories. Have you found me a probable population for the descendents of the Northern Kingdom yet? What's your interpretation of the prophesies? God was drunk that day?

[William Terrell]

Read 281 again. You're not clearing the hurdle. You have not explained why your Celts are in a whole different language family from their ancestor whatevers and from the Egyptians. Egyptian = Semitic. Hebrew = Semitic. Celtic = Indoeuropean. Where did that come from and why has nothing of the sort ever been observed since?

I told you where to go to find it. I'm not retyping all that verbiage. Either do or don't.

Are you getting the picture?

Well, no, I'm not. It seems you just proved my point. That the language changes out of recognician for the general populance over a considerably shorter time than a millenium. Even when the cultures are contiguous instead of manipulated through longs periods of capture and attempted assimilation like Israel as a whole.

Language is a terrible indicator of anything involving mixing cultures and tracking peoples. Here in America, the most literate and advanced country in the world, a immigrant family can loose their source language in two generations unless they work against it.

You obviously don't like the notion that European types can be the descendents of . . . Found a credible alternative people yet? You keep avoiding that question. Maybe in a subsequent post.

[LostTribe]

The 22,000 tablets you refer to which are now in the British Museum have this early history:
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In 705-681 BCE Sennacherib rules the ASSYRIANS and builds a new capital in Ninevah      where he begins to form a library of Sumerian and Babylonian tablets. Sennacherib is a powerful ruler who manages to subdue the entire region of western Asia.

689 BCE: The Near East - Sennacherib destroys BABYLON, but his son rebuilds it. By 650, it has once again become prosperous.

668-627 BCE: The Near East - Ashurbanipal succeeds Sennacherib as ruler of ASSYRIA. He continues to develop the library and, by the time he has finished, collects more than 22,000 clay tablets. In 648, Ashurbanipal destroys the newly rebuilt city of BABYLON in a fierce campaign.

614 BCE: The Near East - The BABYLONIANS (particularly, the Chaldeans) [ED: aided by the over 1,000,000 captured Northern Kindom warriors] with the help of the Medes, who occupy what is today Iran, begin a campaign to destroy the ASSYRIANS. In 612 they succeed, [ED: and the over 5 million northern kingdom prisoners escape out to the north and west and high tail it for Europe] and the Assyrian capital of Ninevah is destroyed. Without the Assyrians, the Chaldeans, a semetic people, rule the entire region thereby issuing in the New Babylonian period, which lasts until 539.
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(excerpted from http://eawc.evansville.edu/chronology/nepage.htm)
 
 

[LostTribe]

Is this the book on the Assyrian Tablets you are referring to?

Assyrian Tablets in the British Museum.

[William Terrell]

Here you basically punt on the evidence and say that your theory is true because Biblical prophecy is true.

Why, yes. You haven't gotten that until now? Either you believe the Bible as a Holy work and the prophesies therein true and will come to pass, or you don't. If you don't believe the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, I'm at a loss to explain why you even care enough to have this conversation. Or you just believe some of the Bible but not all of it?

If you don't believe the prophesise of God are to be fulfilled why waste your time? Please tell me you're not fooling me and trying to waste mine.

[William Terrell]

. . .in full panic at the thought these Israelites might be discovered, and their population may not be very small at all.

It struck me that there are two fears that seem to be consistant with the people that get involved against the NK descendents being the UK, US and related countries. One is the a kneejerk reaction that European types could possibly fit this bill. The other is, like you say, that there are large numbers of them. These two items are fought tooth and nail with vigor and emotion.

[PaulKersey]

Racism is a dirty word too overused. Find a new venue.

Hello stranger. Welcome to FR.

If you are going to throw around words like "racism" you would be well advised to see who first used the word or concept(#292), and who is just defending himself from such accusations. Keeps you from looking silly.

[PaulKersey]

Talking about a large number of people, you might be interested to know that prior to its fall, Ninevah was the largest city in the world. So there may have been a lot of Israelites held captive around there at that time, but there were a lot more Assyrians, Medes and Persians there too. That would seem to indicate most of the population of the world was in that region and around the big seas, Black and Medditeranean(sp?).

Also, that's where Assurbanipal created that library of 22,000 clay tablets written in cuneiform that others are talking about here.

About 612 BC Assyria is overthrown and all hell breaks lose.

[William Terrell]

I'm sure it's worse for some than for others. The Israelites were under punishment from God for their corruptness. They were already far away from their roots and customs while living next to the Southern Kingdom before the Assyrians came. So it was not likely they came back to them and made an effort to keep them as did the Jews.

[William Terrell]

Sorry, having a hard understanding your post. Would you rephrase and run it past me again?