LITTLE WHITE LIES (Administration tells about Islam)

Chronicles Magazine ^ | November 22, 2002 | Thomas Fleming

[MHGinTN]

I said something about hate:

Falling away is, to some degree, to be found in becoming hate-filled, as in holding blood lust toward Moslems.
Playing hate games, as some on this thread are want to do, plays right into the hands of blind rage and perhaps genocide someday. We don't want to go there, and hopefully, neither will/do several of the folks posting to this thread. But we will not submit to totalitarian Islamism and the Islamicists probably know that, thus we are their perfect enemy to be at war with in order to spread their brand of hate and ideological fanaticism. [Remember Marvin's main axiom of war: Crush the enemy and disarm the survivors.]

And I don't retract a word of it as written to my friend, Luis Gonzalez regarding the direction of this thread by some peoples' measure.

[MHGinTN]

... and Christianize their culture -- at bayonet-point, if necessary Hehehe, you certainly will make a good Islamonazi.

[B-Chan]

Hehehe, you certainly will make a good Islamonazi.

And you a good, obedient Moslem.

[B-Chan]

I'm not sure what you mean. If you're implying that I hate Moslems, you're wrong.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Come on -- whattaya got? Baptismal certificate? Photos of McVeigh in full Altar Boy kit? Anything?"

599 articles in Google confirming that he was raised a Catholic.

"Jews worship our God. They are part of our civilization."

You deny that McVeigh was a Christian because he didn't consider Christ as his Savior. Now you are including Jews in with the Christians. I guess this Islam vs. Christianity thing of yours is starting to fall apart at the seams Mr. Chan.

Now, when Islam comes to invade, will they spare the atheists? Will they walk by the agnostics? Will they pardon American Buddhists?

"Irrelevant."

Irrelevant? Hardly...

Your claim is that this is an Islam vs. Christianity war...why did they kill their own in those buildings Mr. Chan? They could have blown up several large churches and not killed a single church...but they didn't.

"But," says Michel, "I think he was just covering his bases."

I am not interested in what Mr. Michel thought of McVeigh's actions, that's irrelevant as he can't possibly know what McVeigh was thinking, could he? An any simpleton understands that he will arrive at conclusions that support his claim, not destroy it.

The only thing that we do know is that McVeigh accepted the last rites, and prayed. Sounds Christian to me.

"Therefore, by a preponderance of evidence, I win the argument and your claim is rendered null."

You remind me of another poster, one that went by the name of bigsigh...he would always declare victory right before starting his retreat.

This "evidence" you claim, is the writer's opinions, backed by very little beyond opinions and second-hand information. What people "think" of another's actions isn't considered to be facts by any stretch of the imagination Mr. Chan.

Documented facts: Tim McVeigh was raised a Catholic, he died a Catholic.

Can you refute those facts Mr. Chan?

Oh...one more thing Mr. Chan...when Islam comes to wage war on our soil, would they spare the lives of the Tim McVeighs of the world? Or would he have been an American, and part of Christendom in their eyes?

The fight is America vs. terrorists.

[Luis Gonzalez]

So what are we to say? Do Muslims or even Jews worship the same god that Christians worship, or not?

The answer may have as much to do with semantics as with theology, but semantics are important.

In essence, the religion of Islam began in 610 A.D. when a man named Mohammed became convinced that the polytheism practiced by the Arabian tribes was wrong, and that only one god should be worshiped. Mohammed believed the angel Gabriel revealed this to him, and preached the message widely, teaching his followers the "revelations" from Gabriel that were collected and preserved as the Qur'an.

"Allah" is a poetic form of the Arabic al illah, meaning "the god." Mohammed took an incipient belief in a supreme god and promoted Allah as the only god.

Mohammed and his followers identified Allah as the god of the Old Testament, consider Abraham to be their spiritual ancestor, and revere the biblical prophets.

Muslims also consider Jesus to be a miracle-working prophet who was born of a virgin. They consider it heresy, however, to claim that Jesus is the Son of God, and reject all notions of the Trinity.

Islamic arguments against Christianity typically assert that Christians worship three gods and thus show infidelity to the one god.

The core of Islamic faith is expressed in the shahadah, sometimes translated as "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." Some English-speaking Muslims translate "There is no god but God."

Jews and Christians have more commonality in belief, and clearly refer to the same deity when we say "God." Christians believe, however, that God's self-revelation does not stop with the Old Testament but is fulfilled in the New Testament.

Whether one prefers to say that Muslims, Jews and Christians believe in different gods, as opposed to differing views of the same god, is largely a matter of semantics. From a Christian perspective, anyone who does not accept the full revelation of God through the saving work of Christ and the sustaining presence of the Holy Spirit has only a partial understanding of God.

Thus, Christians might argue that Muslims or Jews worship "a different god" because we believe their concept of God is incomplete. It is perhaps more appropriate, however, to think of Muslims and Jews as worshiping the same god, though not in His fullness.

Why does it matter? Our terminology can impact the effectiveness of our witness to any who do not accept Christ. It is essential that we keep channels of communication open by showing respect for people of other faiths, even if we believe their view of God is inadequate. Explaining Christ as the saving fulfillment and ultimate revelation of the same god is a natural and effective means of sharing our faith with Muslims and Jews. Insisting that they worship a different god altogether is bound to be counter-productive.

It is possible to be tactful in our speech without compromising our witness.

Source.

[MHGinTN]

I have read that 'al illah' was also an obscure cult goddess in the area from which Mohammed arose. Hindu religion was the precusor to Islam in the Arabian Peninsula and the kabal was previously a Hindu shrine and claimed by Moslems to have been, before the holding by Hinduism, the well/spring from which Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, were sustained in the wilderness. [The sound of the letters is the key because the current Islamic pronunciation of Allah is very similar to the correct pronunciation of al illah.]

[MHGinTN]

Luis, did you happen to read my post #97 earlier? I may have answered the rhetorical questions you just posed to me in that post, sort of.

[Keyes For President]

When measuring the veracity of a religion, look carefully at the actions of the central figure. With Buddhism, the central figure is very peaceful. With Islamism, there is no central figure, for that fanatical farce is based entirely on the hate rhetoric of blood-lusting Imams. The same is not true of the millions of faith-filled Islamics who are just people.

One thing is settled in my mind: there will be no human at that feast who arrived through some means other than what Jesus accomplished on a tree more than two-thousand years ago ... and that split of time reaches back as far if not further than it reaches forward.

This is all true and well said.

There are many peaceful Muslims who are ensnared by their false religion. But Islam is not a religion of peace, it is a false religion, a cult of violence. The ideology of Islam is opposed to the ideology of the West and the aim of true Islam is to force their ways on all and take away the liberties and freedoms we have, freedom of religion being at the top of the list.

[Keyes For President]

Or worse yet, covering up the fact that some members of the House of Saud funded at least a couple of the 9/11 hijackers.

BUMP.

[Keyes For President]

Muslims are not the main problem, Islam is.

Islam is at the root of the problem.

[Keyes For President]

Concentrate the war on the real enemy: the terrorists, anyone who helps or houses known terrorists, and ignorance.

Including the Saudis who financed the terrorists.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Including the Saudis who financed the terrorists."

If that's a fact, then absolutely.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"The U.S. Congress has launched an inquiry into a possible money trail from the Saudi government to two of the 19 hijackers who crashed jets into U.S. cities, threatening to put a further strain on already sour ties between the two allies."

Reuters.

This is a cover-up?

BTW, there is a vast difference between some members of the House of Saud aiding the terrorists, and the Saudi government aiding the terrorists.

There would have to also be significant proof that the money was given to the terrorists with full (or even partial) knowledge of their intent. Then, I would give the Saudi government an opportunity to try, and convict the culprit.

If we believe that people are innocent until proven guilty, it applies here as well.

[Podkayne]

Are You ready for WWIII?

[Mortimer Snavely]

'If they pull off another "spectacular" attack in this country, there will be no bag limits. There will be no stopping average Americans from the summary execution of each and every Muslim in the US. We'll run out of light poles or rope and have to resort to just shooting them.'

You are one sick puppy, and excellent reminder of why gun ownership is a Good Thing. I've got some Muslim friends, a Pakistani family, who are US citizens, and a Turkish family who are in the process of becoming US citizens. I am inclined to take the Pakistanis to the range and burn a couple of hundred rounds through a Mini-14, a pump shotgun, and a couple of Glocks by way of instruction.

No need to teach the Turks, however, they've done their military service, and their military tradition involves 5,000 of them holding off 100,000 + Red Chinese for three days in Korea, or don't they teach that in schools any more?

[DannyTN]

Actually the two proofs of the Bible are the miracles which demonstrate God's power and the prophecies which show God's foreknowledge. Moses was confirmed by both and laid down the criteria to judge whether a person claiming to be a prophet was in fact a prophet. The prophets of the old testament were confirmed by their prophecies and sometimes by miracles. Jesus was confirmed by a ton of both. The apostles of Jesus were confirmed by miracles.

Mohammed failed those tests laid down by Moses at the direction of God. That is why the Jews and the Christians laughed him off when he showed up claiming to be a prophet.

He had no prophecies of his own which were required in order for him to be a prophet, so instead he simply recited what he could of Jewish and Christian theology and made up the rest as he went along. And it shows.

Instead of seeking the lost, Mohammed advocates killing them. Instead of being at peace with all men as much as it depends on you. He openly advocates war. Instead of each man having his on wife and each woman having her own man, as commanded by the New Testament. Mohammed went after multiple wives and after 9 year olds. Instead of forgiveness, Mohammed advocated revenge. Instead of keeping your word, Mohammed advocates deception.

Instead of salvation by grace through God providing a substitutionary sacrifice (Jesus), Mohammed advocates salvation by man making himself good. The Muslim's goodness (to the extent that the Muslim even has a clue about what is good) is going to pale compared to the expectation of a perfect Holy God and and his failings will condemn him.

Ezekiel Chapter 35 ought to be a strong warning against any who would have "perpetual enmity" against Israel.

[A.J.Armitage]

Funny you should mention Google. I did a search, and look what the first hit was:

In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company."

If you have an honest bone in your body, your next comment will be a retraction.