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John Ashcroft's Amerika
Captiol Hill Blue ^ | 22 Nov 02 | Doug Thompson

Posted on 11/22/2002 9:53:46 AM PST by dts32041

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To: god_is_everywhere
Only when the first ten Amendments are replaced with the Ten Commandments will this country truly be God's country.

Get lost. I have no desire to live in a theocracy.

41 posted on 11/22/2002 11:56:17 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Area51
I have a really stupid question that perhaps you or someone else could give me a link to more information on but, wasn't the idea of Homeland Security developed under clinton?

The fact that this bill passed blows my mind but I was under the impression that it dated back to clinton and I view it as more of a political (albeit a bad one) move rather than a tactical move.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

42 posted on 11/22/2002 11:57:48 AM PST by scoopscandal
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To: scoopscandal
wasn't the idea of Homeland Security developed under clinton?

I haven't heard that one. I have heard it alleged that much of the Patriot Act was provisions that the Reno Justice Department had been seeking for years.

43 posted on 11/22/2002 11:59:48 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: Station 51
it just feels better when a Republican is trampling your Constitutional Rights!

You nailed it. Most FReepers desperately want the GOP to do to them what they feared from the 'RATS. They only want power, and they are willing to live in a police state to get it.

When the mestizo tidal wave of voters in elementary schools permanently install 'RATS in power, these same FReepers will cry foul because they were too stupid to understand that when you give the government power, that power does not vanish when the "good guys" leave office.

The more tools we give the Pubbies, the more tools the 'RATS will have to club us with when they get it back.

44 posted on 11/22/2002 12:00:11 PM PST by Orion
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To: dirtboy
Well, when you can disprove anything I posted you be sure to let me be the first to know it, Okay?

Until then, I'll stand by what I have read, and posted from Multiple sources.
45 posted on 11/22/2002 12:01:22 PM PST by Area51
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Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: COBOL2Java
His main attitude was that these new authorities given to Ashcroft are necessary given our war against Al Quaida, and if history is any guide, will not become a permanent fixture.

That works right up until the gov't embarks on an endless war against a faceless enemy.

Not that that has happened....

47 posted on 11/22/2002 12:03:05 PM PST by Orion
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To: dts32041
Its time for Ashcroft to go!
48 posted on 11/22/2002 12:07:53 PM PST by FreeLibertarian
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To: god_is_everywhere
Only when the first ten Amendments are replaced with the Ten Commandments will this country truly be God's country. It's a slow, painful process, but we're finally heading in the right direction.

When Jesus runs the country, I'll be with you. Until then, I'll take the Bill of Rights over a bunch of clerics determining who is in favor and who is out.

BTW, God has no obligation to bless the USA. It is modeled on Isreal's greatest oppressor of all time. The Ten Commandments are personal laws, not the laws of the land. The USA is never going to stand in judgment - only her citizens.

49 posted on 11/22/2002 12:08:52 PM PST by Orion
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To: dirtboy
I have heard it alleged that much of the Patriot Act was provisions that the Reno Justice Department had been seeking for years.

Yes. The Justice Dept has been trying to get roving wire taps for years. Then, last summer, JA danced in the blood of 9/11 and got them.

Guess what? They are not for tracking terrorists. They are for tracking you, and your money.

Not to worry...the Pubbies will never abuse the power, and will be in power FOREVER!!!!

50 posted on 11/22/2002 12:11:40 PM PST by Orion
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Comment #51 Removed by Moderator

To: pgyanke
"No, it's the abuse of power that counts regardless of the powers granted."

NO it is the power granted. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I am not too worried about what Ashcroft will do with his new found powers. Can't say I am too impressed with him, but I don't think he is as dangerous as the next Democrat Attorney General will be.

People in government use every bit of power they have to further their goals. If their goals are the same as yours, you tend not to mind. Just remember that they will not always have the same goals as you. Only fools give government unlimited power over their lives. The constitution and bill of rights is all about limiting the power of government.

Trust Ashcroft if you like but what are you going to do when Ashcroft is gone?

52 posted on 11/22/2002 12:13:05 PM PST by monday
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To: dave23
It amazes me that there are defenders of this Crap, all the while our Southern Border is under seize. Federal Agents have been shot and KILLED. The Border patrol is pleading for help, and Jorge Delano Bush doesn't have the balls to do a dammed thing about it, because of, as his Chief Stoolie, Carl Rove told Rep. Tacredo "political considerations". In other words, Jorge wants the Mexican Vote. To hell with those of us that are already here paying with our taxes the Services they must recieve the minute they cross.

So when the next attack happens and it is traced to a illegal that came across from Mexico, Blame No one other than Jorge Delano Bush and John Ashcroft. We are under attack, and they are asleep at the switch.

Disgusting.


And what does our Politicians do, well they pass more laws Violating MY RIGHTS!

53 posted on 11/22/2002 12:13:43 PM PST by Area51
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To: Area51
Well, when you can disprove anything I posted you be sure to let me be the first to know it, Okay?

In other words, you cannot cite a section, and therefore put me in the position of trying to prove a negative. I counter by saying that I have seen nothing in the HSA that provides for what you posted, but I'm still reading it. If I find something, I will post it. If I don't, then you have to decide whether a negative has been proven. It would be a lot faster if you would e-mail those sources and ask them to provide a section they are referencing.

Until then, I'll stand by what I have read, and posted from Multiple sources.

Well, if you had read Safire, Gertz, Boortz and Doug Thompson, you would be convinced that HSA authorized TIA and it was a done deal. You would have been wrong. I'm no longer trusting these guys to give me the straight story - it took a week, but my researched opinion that Safire was wrong last week has been confirmed (in the meantime, I was again proving a negative) - unfortunately, his allegations have taken on a life of their own.

54 posted on 11/22/2002 12:14:05 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: god_is_everywhere
"Only when the first ten Amendments are replaced with the Ten Commandments will this country truly be God's country. It's a slow, painful process, but we're finally heading in the right direction."

Sheesh... go live in Iran. They have a Theocracy there. I am sure you will be very happy. Their jack booted thugs persecute in the name of God. You can see how happy the people are.

55 posted on 11/22/2002 12:25:01 PM PST by monday
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To: Area51
If you don't think they have ways of doing everything you've listed already, you are naive.
56 posted on 11/22/2002 12:25:19 PM PST by MEGoody
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To: monday
I've stated clearly that I don't trust anyone in particular in government service. They all have their agendas and not all of them are for the good of the country at large.

However, on the subject of power corrupting, my point is that it doesn't matter how much power has been granted to an abuser. The abuser of power will take all they need to further their aims.

For non-abusers, it's the granted power that matters.

This debate is similar to the one over gun control. Gun control laws don't stop the lawless anymore than power limitations stop the abusers of power.

I don't trust John Ashcroft anymore than I can throw him. However, the sources I've read state that the recent acts have done nothing more than remove some of the shackles imposed by the Demo-idiots which weakened our security. I'm in favor of our intelligence and law enforcement personnel having the tools and authority they need to do their jobs.

There's been a lot of hyperbole. I'm still waiting for REAL citations to show where this legislation is evil.
57 posted on 11/22/2002 12:29:25 PM PST by pgyanke
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To: Dr. Frank
This nation survived J. Edgar Hoover's FBI. Also I don't expect them to be very efficient with this information (if they were tracking every purchase in America of every person, how do they account for cash transactions; additionally, does anyone believe that they could even coordinate and store all of that data?).

Remember that the DC Snipers' plates were logged at road blocks after several of the shootings and yet there still was no connection as to who was doing the shootings (quite a coincidence there to always be at the scene of the crime).

The potential for this legislation does not make me happy but it's all what they do with it. A better security bill would focus of border security, driver's license fraud, technical training, etc.

58 posted on 11/22/2002 12:29:48 PM PST by weegee
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To: FreeLibertarian
Its time for Ashcroft to go!

I agree. Go, John, go!

59 posted on 11/22/2002 12:31:08 PM PST by MEGoody
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To: pgyanke
"No matter how much power is GRANTED, more is TAKEN when it is abused."

You still misunderstand. All power granted is used/abused. Whither you see it as being used or abused tends to depend on whither it is being used against you or not.

In your case you will likely see Ashcroft as using his powers wisely and any Democrat successor as wildly abusing their powers.

60 posted on 11/22/2002 12:32:03 PM PST by monday
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