John Ashcroft's Amerika

Captiol Hill Blue ^ | 22 Nov 02 | Doug Thompson

[dirtboy]

Read the Law, they now have the right to access my finacial records without a search warrent by simpy telling the financial institution that they suspect.....Same with Medical records and Pharmacy records. They also can track my purchases thru Credit card records. All this is to be incorporated into one large database, Including Gun Purchases.

Since you are the one telling folks to read the law, perhaps you can point out in the law where this is authorized.

[jwalsh07]

You're a one man truth squad lately dirt.

[Savvymusician]

I'm no koolaid drinker by any means and I am afraid there is an element of truth in this editorial. There is no doubting the fact that the Poindexter computer is on its way to encroaching the privacy rights of millions of Americans, including gun owners, and Ashcroft is deeply involved in this administration which is promoting this. This new computer system has the potential to create a Gestapo-like world in America. One of the first things Ashcroft and Bush did after George started his presidency was to take over that little Baptist church, with ATF agents on nearby rooftops, just because they didn't feel they had to pay the Feds taxes on their employees.

[dirtboy]

This has been a very interesting study about how some bad information can take on a life of its own as it moves about the media. I'm kinda disappointed in both Gertz and now Doug Thompson - I thought these two would have verified that TIA was actually part of HSA.

[Station 51]

Could you please enumerate the untruths in this article?

[dirtboy]

There is no doubting the fact that the Poindexter computer is on its way to encroaching the privacy rights of millions of Americans

Fortunately, there is doubt. First of all, the DOJ proposed a problematic database with TIPS, but the public rose up against it, and the HSA finally killed off that program once and for all - so public pressure is quite effective in killing off these measures (hint, hint). And second, I simply cannot see how this database would be effective - just way too much data, it'll be like trying to take a drink of water from an open fire hydrant, and that, when coupled with the general incompetence of the feds, would keep any such database from achieving its goals.

[jwalsh07]

I'd be interested in their replies.

By the way a while back we were discussing Atta's meeting in Prague. Since then I've been corresponding with the editor of one of the papers in Prague about the truth or lack of in that report.

Basically what he told me was, it's fifty fifty and if that changes he'll get back to me.

[dirtboy]

See post 20 for one problem with the column.

[Station 51]

I would like to know your opinion, do you trust these powers in the hands of Gore or Hillary?

I have never understood why many conservatives and Constitutionalists have no problem with a GOP government gathering data on private citizens and potentially violating their Fourth Amendment. However, if a Democrat were to demand the same governmental powers the same people would be outraged. Perhaps, it just feels better when a Republican is trampling your Constitutional Rights!

[Poohbah]

A black helicoptor flew over my house today pulling a banner that said "John Ashcroft is watching you."

Dang. You must live near me, I saw the same thing :o)

[dyed_in_the_wool]

No, it's the abuse of power that counts regardless of the powers granted.

I believe the quote is, "Power Corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." It's the power that corrupts. It's the abuse that's the crime.

[Area51]

Since you are the one telling folks to read the law, perhaps you can point out in the law where this is authorized.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:h.r.2975:

http://www.ccr-ny.org/whatsnew/usa_patriot_act.asp

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11854

...Even Internet Service Providers, universities and network administrators are authorized under the new law to conduct surveillance of "computer trespassers" without a court order. The new law compels any Internet provider or telephone company to turn over customer information, including phone numbers called, without a court order, if the FBI claims that the records are relevant to a terrorism investigation. The company is forbidden to disclose that the FBI is conducting an investigation, has immunity to provide any sensitive data and is not bound by statutory rights to suppress the information. "There is no incentive for anyone to know about it, or challenge it or rein it in," says Dempsey. ...

http://www.cdt.org/security/010911response.shtml

Just to lay out a few....

[Deb]

What garbage.

As an official hostess at the Koolaid Bistro, let me just say that writing and posting such over-the-top, alarmist propaganda about an agency, an AG and a President will buy you the credibility of a post when a real threat to our liberties comes along.

The TIA doesn't exist and when/if it does it will belong to the Pentagon. The other nonsense you've toggled together in the Joe Conason-like hit piece, I'll let others correct...the smell on this thread is making me queasy.

[Station 51]

Sure and after eight or twelve years of development the Government will not only be able to track your purchases, your guns, your health but even every post you submit on Internet sites like Free Republic. By then we may even have a Democrat in the White House. But I am sure most members of Free Republic will have little problem with these systems when leftists are in charge.

[COBOL2Java]

I was listening to a local talk radio show (take that, Tiny Tom!) and the guest was a constitutional lawyer. Very interesting. The guest said that in our history, there have been brief expansions of Presidential &/or AG powers during times of crisis - the Civil War is one that I remember him mentioning - followed by a period after the crisis has lessened when these powers were gradually taken away. He referred to it as "the accordion effect."

His main attitude was that these new authorities given to Ashcroft are necessary given our war against Al Quaida, and if history is any guide, will not become a permanent fixture. All in all he was pretty sanguine about the whole thing.

[verity]

BS Alert!

[pgyanke]

I think we agree... sometimes it's hard to tell here. :-)

I liken the power corrupting quote with bribery. Bribing is a crime, sure. However, there would be no bribe without someone in power willing to accept the payout. Power may corrupt, but in the end it's the abuse of power that is the true problem. No matter how much power is GRANTED, more is TAKEN when it is abused.

[dirtboy]

...Even Internet Service Providers, universities and network administrators are authorized under the new law to conduct surveillance of "computer trespassers" without a court order. The new law compels any Internet provider or telephone company to turn over customer information, including phone numbers called, without a court order, if the FBI claims that the records are relevant to a terrorism investigation. The company is forbidden to disclose that the FBI is conducting an investigation, has immunity to provide any sensitive data and is not bound by statutory rights to suppress the information. "There is no incentive for anyone to know about it, or challenge it or rein it in," says Dempsey. ...

That is not a cite of a section from H.R. 5710, so I have no way of verifying that claim. William Safire made similar claims that the HSA would gather every credit card transaction and medical record in the country and place it into a central database. He was full of it - DARPA is not part of this bill, and the bill does not provide the financial, logistical or legal mechanisms for such an endeavor, and no such provisions have been passed in other bills.

I am in the process of reading this entire bill. Some of the provisions that were mentioned above could well be part of the Patriot Act instead of HSA, and I intend to start researching that next to see what sections folks should work against for eventual modification or elimination.

[dirtboy]

Sure and after eight or twelve years of development the Government will not only be able to track your purchases, your guns, your health but even every post you submit on Internet sites like Free Republic. By then we may even have a Democrat in the White House. But I am sure most members of Free Republic will have little problem with these systems when leftists are in charge.

First of all, at this point TIA is just a glimmer in Poindexter's eye. Second, it is just as vulnerable as TIPS was to public pressure for Congress to kill it - as Congress killed TIPS with Section 880 of HSA. And third, in my professional opinion it won't work as intended - the main danger of such a database is that the data modeling aspects will be abandonded, but it could be abused as a lookup database.