Is Israel becoming less Jewish?

israelinsider.com ^ | November 19, 2002 | Shalom Freedman

[plano29]

I would have thought that someone who chose the name "KantianBurke" would understand the importance of religion
in civil society. As a poster on FreeRepublic I would have thought you would have at least some tolorance toward social conservatives.

[KantianBurke]

Either you yourself are ignorant of Immanuel Kant or you've misunderstood much of what he has written. I don't think Kant would have much patience with dealing with religious zealots trying to order his community around. While raised in and attended a Pietist school in Konigsberg, he would later write that he had little use for mindless dogmatism.

[wideawake]

A close friend of mine was a captain in the Israeli army. He's quite secular (he votes Meretz - and we're still friends!) and he and some of his friends told me that it frustrates many Israeli soldiers that so few Orthodox serve.

They make the point that they feel the Orthodox who inhabit the settlements look down on them for being so secular, yet when the settlements are attacked they are willing to put their lives on the line to defend the same settlers who refuse to serve in the army and who scorn them for their secularity.

It's apparently a significant morale problem. One of his friends said "I'd give my life defending Tel Aviv, but why should I bother fighting for people in Hebron who call my wife a whore for wearing a tanktop?"

It seems like Israelis are splitting into two camps of the resolutely secular and the resolutely observant. Such disunity is not good for the future.

[Inkie]

You have a lot of nerve accusing Alouette of a personal attack. Stop projecting and either contribute to dialogue in a civilized manner or get lost.

[KantianBurke]

Last time I checked voicing opposition and contempt against a subset of Judaism isn't an "attack." You sound like Leni Fourlanie, Bubba's failed nominee for Attorney General. In her words she saw verbal criticism as a new version of physical beating. I can and will make known the lack of tolerance and antipathy some orthodox sects have towards not only secular Jews but to the surrounding communities. They, not I, are the ones who act in Taliban like strides. I and other secular Jews wish to be LEFT ALONE. And when one wishes to defend themselves and call a spade a spade they're somehow at fault? Or a Nazi? That's a Rat tactic which you, not I, am utlizing.

Its all well and good that you coexist with all the other folks on your campus. However you seem to have a bit of difficulty dealing with arguments on FR. Namecalling and shouting might suffice there when you're "offended" but here I see little objective defense of orthodox behavior. All I keep seeing from you is flaming.

My points are simple. Some orthodox Jews in Israel and here in the US do not wish to assimilate. Fine. But they've shown repeadtly that they wish to control and force their religious views on others with unpleasent end results. See the Israeli "marriage" situation. Before the recent intifada there were daily articles countering secular - orthodox spats. Neither side is blameless but one constant emerged: the Orthodox's main point of contention was control while the secular folks WANTED TO BE LEFT ALONE. As for your contention that my views originate from ancedotal sources or from some biased left wing Israeli papers nice try. Have you ever been to Israel? I have as well as a number of my relatives who left their recently. Have you ever lived in a mixed Jewish community? ect ect. One constant was the disgusting attempts at control that were fostered upon secular folks. Pointing that out really pisses Aloutte and his foul mouthed friends off which is quite sad. Think of the good they could do if instead of blasting me and others, they learned to control THEMSELVES. Alienating conservative secular Jews certainly doesn't help. attacks.

[KantianBurke]

Care to point out where I initiated a personal attack against anyone? Do so or follow your own advice and get lost.

[Inkie]

Yawn. You again? We've been through this before. Still waiting on any sort of explanation regarding how those "tolerant" Orthodox went nuts on the Israeli airline and attacked their fellow passengers because of a film. Try not to change the subject, start calling everyone Nazis or dissappear like you did the last time.</>

[KantianBurke]

Ok and thats a personal attack how???? He and I had a previous discussion (or rather I attempted to as he and his friends kept namecalling and smearing) which he left suddenly and had failed to respond to the issue then at hand. Bringing that up is somehow akin to calling a poster childish names and inanities? Sheesh aren't we sensative.

[Southern Federalist]

The author essentially wants Israel to be a Jewish state

Well, uh, actually Israel is a Jewish state, and has been since its founding. You might find it informative to read Israel's Declaration of Independence. Israel has been struggling, in the midst of fifty years of continuous war and threat, to be a Jewish state, with a constitutive commitment to the physical and cultural survival of the Jewish people, and a simultaneous commitment to ensure "complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex" and guarantee "freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture." It is a very difficult thing to do, and if Israel hasn't done it perfectly, I'd say it's made a pretty impressive attempt under the circumstances.

Exactly where in the article does the author advocate discrimination against non-Jews in immigration and citizenship? So far as I can see, all his suggestions have to do with increasing the number of Jews in Israel, especially those with a strong sense of Jewish identity.

He deplores "unfortunate efforts at religious coercion on the part of the ultra-Orthodox" as part of the problem. He sees the most promise in a "massive overhaul of the school systems in Israel" so that the secular schools actually teach Israeli kids about the Jewish tradition and religious schools give their students a wider sense of Jewish identity. (What is unstated is in the article that this is necessary in the wake of the Israeli Left's introduction of multiculturalism and promotion of Jewish amnesia in the schools over the past twenty years or so.)

Are we to understand that you would find it odious to expect immigrant children in the United States to learn about Magna Carta and the history of western Christian culture? Why would it be wrong for a Jewish state to present the Jewish tradition in its schools?

[Godel]

Yes, because Jewish Israelis aren't having very many babies (outside of the Orthodox settlers, who have 7 or 8), and Arab Israelis are. It's called "outbaby the enemy," and it *works.*

Hola Aren't we seeing the same thing here in America amigo?

[cookcounty]

"The author essentially wants Israel to be a Jewish state, to discriminate against non-Jews when considering immigration and citizen status. In other words, the author is espousing intolerance of other religions when it comes to Israeli citizenship."

of Israel includes being a Jewish state. I don't think they're obligated to become secular.

Israel is pretty open on immigration, not doing much to discriminate between types of self-identifying "Jews."----That's how all those Russian "non-Jews" arrived in Israel. In some fashion they ARE Jews, most being descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and at some level identifying with that heritage, and many having been harrassed and persecuted in Russia for their connection to Israel and Judaism, however "tenuous."

[Hila]

Israel is for the Israelis and in the end there will be no Arab forcing their way into Israeli territory. The numbers of Jewish immigrants from Russia, Africa, South America and Europe are up - these are people who know they are Jews and and repopulating their land. No amount of procreation in the Arab camp is going to make things go their way. the Arabs are trespassing and they will eventually be evicted, since they have shown they cannot peaceably cohabit with anyone nation.

[Alouette]

They make the point that they feel the Orthodox who inhabit the settlements look down on them for being so secular, yet when the settlements are attacked they are willing to put their lives on the line to defend the same settlers who refuse to serve in the army

Your friend is in error. Some Orthodox are exempt from military service but there are also many who do serve. The relgious settlers generally do not avoid military service and in fact the majority of the "settlers" have been and are currently serving in combat units.

Orthodox soldier's Jenin war diary

In addition, there are Orthodox who give their national service by serving in Magen David Adom as paramedics and in ZAKA (these are the guys who go around after every terrorist attack and collect the pieces of people).

[wideawake]

He's well aware that some serve, but he'd much rather discuss those who don't.

And we all know how assiduous the Orthodox are to recover every Jewish body after an attack.

My point is: the fact that he and his friends feel this way suggests that there is a tension between the two communities: that many secular Israelis don't care about the area they call the West Bank, while Orthodox Jews cherish places like Hebron and would never dream of conceding it to the Arabs.

My fear is that the two groups are/will be seeing their interests and goals diverge. The Arabs are unified in their hatred - while some Jews have their hearts set on the political entity known as the State of Israel and others have their hearts set on Eretz Yisrael, the Jewish birthright.

And my friend even argues: "Yes, perhaps the charedim are right and perhaps we are entitled to the borders described in the Torah. That doesn't mean that we are entitled to them right now. Maybe we have to give them up for the time being until we get stronger or the Arabs calm down." That is, when does pragmatism (and a misguided pragmatism) collide with faith (a faith that is paradoxically, perhaps more pragmatic)?