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The Free State Project: A Project for Idaho
Idaho Observer via Sierra Times ^ | 11/16/02 | Hari Heath

Posted on 11/18/2002 7:26:58 AM PST by Jack Black

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To: exodus
Actually, there are Libertarians on FR who defend slavery, as long as it is done under the guise of "contract."

And it seems they have an apologist.
341 posted on 11/20/2002 9:42:39 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Poohbah
"...Basically, libertarianism works in a world where people are innately good, without any evil impulses anywhere. Sadly to say, that world does not exist."
# 335 by Poohbah
**********************

Of course libertarian ideas won't work without a moral component. That's been said since the beginning of our country, Poohbah.

I'm too tired to lok for it, but paraphrased, a famous quote from those times said,

"Our society is made for a moral, religious people. If the people abandon their morals, our Republic will not survive."
Our founders were libertarian, and everybody the world over knew that their "idealistic" government would not survive.
342 posted on 11/20/2002 9:43:47 AM PST by exodus
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To: exodus
Of course libertarian ideas won't work without a moral component.

Said component being notably lacking in libertarian philosophy.

343 posted on 11/20/2002 9:46:35 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: Roscoe
To: exodus
Actually, there are Libertarians on FR who defend slavery, as long as it is done under the guise of "contract." And it seems they have an apologist.
# 341 by Roscoe
**********************

You won't find any libertarian advocating slavery.

The only defense for slavery is economic, and that doesn't fly anymore.

Give me a name, Roscoe. Give me the name of a libertarian who says that slavery isn't an infringement of the rights of man.

344 posted on 11/20/2002 9:49:22 AM PST by exodus
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To: Poohbah
Of course libertarian ideas won't work without a moral component.
To: exodus
Said component being notably lacking in libertarian philosophy.
# 343 by Poohbah
**********************

Only if you don't know what morals are, Poohbah.

I bet you can't even define a "right."

345 posted on 11/20/2002 9:51:25 AM PST by exodus
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To: wimpycat
"To put it another way, how would this victim and his family survive? Would private charity bear the brunt? "

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it creates victim constituencies which are the foundation of liberalism in our era. The Liberal Federalist state is always built to provide services to the sick, lame, underprivilaged, underserved, and succeeds in building a larger and less efficient system of delivery with each succeeding generation. FSP's aim is to restore the right of each state to deliver services to it's citizens as it sees fit, in other words deliver services at the lowest level of government. This was the way the founding documents specify that the system works - See Article I Sec 8 & Ammendment 10. In this way a Libertarian state may decide to offer very little in the way of government services and a Democrat State may decide to provide wall to wall coverage of all lifes maladies. Then the residents may vote with their feet. The problem of course, is that the producers will move to the Libertararian State and the non-producers will move to the Democrat State.... Because Socalism is not a sustainable economic system unless the non-producers use the power of government to wring funding from the producers.

346 posted on 11/20/2002 9:55:02 AM PST by newt
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To: exodus
I bet you can't even define a "right."

From what I've seen, Libertarians sure as hell can't.

347 posted on 11/20/2002 9:56:16 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: exodus
You won't find any libertarian advocating slavery.

Unless it's under the guise of contract.

Would a so-called "Free State" allow indentured servitude?

348 posted on 11/20/2002 9:56:43 AM PST by Roscoe
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Comment #349 Removed by Moderator

To: Poohbah; exodus
Main Entry: 2right
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English riht, from riht, adjective
Date: before 12th century
1 : qualities (as adherence to duty or obedience to lawful authority) that together constitute the ideal of moral propriety or merit moral approval
2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled b (1) : the interest that one has in a piece of property -- often used in plural (2) plural : the property interest possessed under law or custom and agreement in an intangible thing especially of a literary and artistic nature
3 : something that one may properly claim as due

Main Entry: 1pow·er
Pronunciation: 'pau(-&)r
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French poeir, from poeir to be able, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin potEre, alteration of Latin posse -- more at POTENT
Date: 13th century
1 a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect (2) : ability to get extra-base hits (3) : capacity for being acted upon or undergoing an effect b : legal or official authority, capacity, or right

350 posted on 11/20/2002 10:04:48 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Our Founding Fathers formed our government based upon libertarian principles. Not surprising, since they WERE libertarians.
# 338 by exodus
To: exodus
Begging the question is all you've got.
"Criminal sodomy laws in effect in 1791..."

"...Virginia had no specific statute outlawing sodomy, but had adopted the English common law. 9 Hening's Laws of Virginia, ch. 5, 6, p. 127 (1821) (passed 1776).
BOWERS v. HARDWICK, 478 U.S. 186"
# 340 by Roscoe
**********************

Why do you feel that sodomy laws have special meaning to me, Roscoe? A more serious violation of libertarian principles was the public acceptance of slavery.

Times change, Roscoe. Religious beliefs in those times considered slavery acceptable, while thinking that sodomy was morally worse than murder. Nowadays that's completely reversed, with sodomy a non-issue with most people, and slavery universally condemned.

Even then, libertarians believed that slavery was evil. They tried to put a stop to it, but the belief that slavery was economically necessary forced them to back down.

As to sodomy, I have never read anything on how the Founders felt about it. Regardless, sodomy is a personnal choice, and even if you shiver at the very thought of it, it's still none of your business.

351 posted on 11/20/2002 10:14:25 AM PST by exodus
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Comment #352 Removed by Moderator

To: Poohbah
To: exodus
Said component (morals) being notably lacking in libertarian philosophy.
# 343 by Poohbah
Only if you don't know what morals are, Poohbah.
I bet you can't even define a "right."
# 345 by exodus
To: exodus
From what I've seen, Libertarians sure as hell can't.
# 347 by Poohbah
**********************

I'm a libertarian, and I've defined "rights" on this very thread.

Try it. Define "rights" without looking back to see what I said, and without running to the dictionary.

I bet you can't do it.

353 posted on 11/20/2002 10:21:19 AM PST by exodus
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To: wimpycat; exodus
Thomas Jefferson's quote (I'm surprised you'd take non-Constitutional text and pass it off as valid to the law) would only make sense if he felt public assistance was fraudulent and taken by force. I don't believe he felt that way, and I believe the quote has been taken out of its larger context anyway.

You are incorrect on both counts. It has not been taken out of context, and here's why:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government." - Thomas Jefferson.

354 posted on 11/20/2002 10:21:38 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: Roscoe
You won't find any libertarian advocating slavery. Unless it's under the guise of contract.

If someone voluntarily signs a contract, then he's not a slave. You're an idiot...

355 posted on 11/20/2002 10:24:26 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: exodus
You think you've defined rights. You have not adequately done so.
356 posted on 11/20/2002 10:24:30 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: exodus
"Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro' the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least." --Thomas Jefferson

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendVIIIs10.html
357 posted on 11/20/2002 10:25:24 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: Karl B
Goblins have efficient forms of govermenments for their constitution. These are known as hordes or tribes. And then they get quickly ruled by any charismatic wizard roaming in the surroundings. When they ask his name he usually answers Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot. Most stupid form of anarchist utopy I can think of. ROFLMAO. Your project will never succeed untill you grow up mentally.

And your nutty rantings will be incomprehensible until you regain your sanity. The fact that you based your entire argument upon my screen name clearly shows that you are off your rocker..

358 posted on 11/20/2002 10:27:18 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: Poohbah
20,000 "outsiders" pushing their agenda in a small state like Wyoming is more likely to generate 40,000 votes going the opposite way.

45 weeks for the first thousand *outsiders* to sign on, 15 weeks more to reach 2000. No guarantee that rate of growth will continue- or won't- but how many weeks are there from now to the next election? Something like 45 more?

But I have a bet going that there'll be 5000 FSP porkypioneers by mid-April. We'll soon see.

I don't expect most to be relocated to the chosen state in time for the next election, but I wouldn't bet on it being impossible that they may be a factor. And four years, two hundred weeks after that? Oh yes.

359 posted on 11/20/2002 10:28:30 AM PST by archy
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To: The Green Goblin
If someone voluntarily signs a contract, then he's not a slave.

Your position stands in contradiction to our 13th Amendment.

Would a so-called "Free State" allow indentured servitude?

360 posted on 11/20/2002 10:28:30 AM PST by Roscoe
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